are christian wives respected?

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I am not married but I liken it to the following example. I could work for a guy that sees me as his lesser partner, I choose not to, I work for someone who values my opinion, however I certainly can appreciate the fact that ultimately it will be him that takes the fall for bad decisions and not me! Lol?heheheh

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See, the thing of it is, I don't view marriage as anything at all like a employee/employer relationship. Not even close.And what about the situation where a man works for a woman?

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Although I am certain there will be some repercussion for my participation, but it is he that will take the brunt of the heat for it. However I would never intentionally entice him to make a bad decision because I respect him and we are on the same team, I depend on him and trust his ability to make sound decisions, otherwise I wouldn?t be here, and vice versa. Thus we see eye to eye and that is why he hired me and why I continue to choose to work for him, because we are equally yoked so to speak on how we view a working business relationship. There are certainly many people in my company that doesn?t see our standard mode of business the same way we do, who cares? It works for us.

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It is certainly easier to have less responsibility and less accountability, but in a marriage, this would seem to translate to being considered childlike. If a wife abdicates equal responsibility and accountability for the marriage to her husband, then she ultimately can be told what to do. In fact, she would HAVE to be told what to do, by definition.If all you want out of a marriage is a business relationship, then OK, but wow, that seems pretty non-spiritual to me.Now, about the Adam and Eve stuff...Do you believe that they really existed and the story as it is told really happened, or is it a story told by a male-dominated culture to try to explain why it is OK for women to be subjugated by men for all of time?[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-07-2003]

Hi Freaky,Thanks for putting so much effort and thought into your posts. What you say makes sense and I follow it, but your reply about a husband and wife submitting to God's will isn't actually an answer to what I was asking, unfortunately.I will try to clarify. I was talking about the Biblical passages concerning the directive that wives should submit to their husbands in all things. You countered by saying that husbands and wives actually submit to each other. I wondered how you could be the leader of the marriage at all times (meaning your wife never leads you) if you were also submitting to her some of the time.I know your wife will always submit and never lead, but I want to know how you, as the leader of the marriage, can submit and lead at the same time.If it is true submission, then you do it even when you don't really want to. Submission only when you agree or want to isn't actually submission.If you actually do submit to the will of your wife, but you insist that she never leads, is it that the marriage is leaderless at the times you submit to her, or is she actually the leader at those times and you don't want to admit that she is?These are several of the logical, practical consequences of the statements you have made. They don't, frankly, make a whole lot of sense to me.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-07-2003]

Harmonization, please break your messages down into paragraphs, and put a blank line between paragraphs. The dreaded "monolithic text" is difficult to read.All would appreciate it, if you edited any such past messages also, to help with this situation.Adminnemooseus------------------
{mnmoose@lakenet.com}Added by edit: Harmonization has edited message 45 per above - Thank You - AM[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 03-07-2003]

[quote]"Now, about the Adam and Eve stuff...Do you believe that they really existed and the story as it is told really happened, or is it a story told by a male-dominated culture to try to explain why it is OK for women to be subjugated by men for all of time?"subjugated? Hey we are not fighting a war here.we are talking about a marriage with Christ as the focus. Subjugated? Who is subjugated? Where does it say anything at all about women or more specifically wives (which is the topic) are supposed to be domineered, conquered of subjected to anything? subjugated? As in under enemy control? That’s an extreme if I ever heard one.Ok Ill go with the Merriam Webster definition of subjugated: 1. to bring under control and governance as a subject : CONQUER 2. to make submissive : SUBDUEOr how about the same thesaurus version of subjugated: CONQUER 1, bear down, beat down, crush, defeat, overpower, reduce, subdue, vanquish Related Word compel, coerce, force 2 Synonyms ENSLAVE, enthrall.AnyhowWell if you are going to choose to live by the biblical scriptures than yes one would have to assume that part is just as true as any other part. From what I hear to be able to call yourself a true Christian living a Christian way of life you cant pick and choose what you want to believe in and throw out the rest. To each his own, whether or not I believe it is irrelevant. I dont ever foresee myself getting married, I just gave my limited understanding of why it was set up that way in the Christian bible.I still dont think however it is as severe or demeaning as some make it out to be tho. I think there is some sort of common sense clause that if your husband asks you to do something against biblical laws or that is just down right mean or stupid then no, or course you are not supposed to submit.The husband is supposed to love his wife as he loves himself, (and as Christ loves the church) he is supposed to be Christ-like in his approach to her and by that definition he is obviously not supposed to abuse her in anyway or be overpowering, domineering or demeaning. So if he is holding up his end of the bargain and is treating her as Christ treats His church, then her part of the deal is to trust him and submit to his will as his will is supposed to be the same as the will of God (as so should hers).I still believe the general idea is to submit to one another as you submit unto Christ, but the husband will be the one held most accountable for his family unit when it comes down to it just as the church will held accountable to Christ and so on. Its like God is just saying, hey Eve dont make it hard on Adam, talk to hubby before you eat the next apple, and listen to him if he has got it right because its him that is going to take the whole blame next time. (ok maybe that is not what He is saying but that in IMO is how I interpreted it)I have certainly met men that seem to take that notion (of being the boss) to an extreme and are possessive and mean because they think the bible says its their right, but that is not what it says. It does not say Husbands, force your wives to submit, conquer them and beat them down if they don’t submit (as a matter of fact it says just the opposite), it simply says that the wife should willingly submit to her husband. It doesn’t say anything anywhere about forcing the wife to submit or to be subjugated, if it does please show me where.I think people too often times take things out of context, they see a line or two they like or dont like so they try capitalize on it and set it in stone or invalidate the whole thing. Like I said, to each his own.Anyhow, sorry for buttin in...toodles...[This message has been edited by Harmonization, 03-07-2003]

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Ok Ill go with the Merriam Webster definition of subjugated: 1. to bring under control and governance as a subject : CONQUER 2. to make submissive : SUBDUE

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In the Greek, the word used means something very similar to what you define here. Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

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subjugated? Hey we are not fighting a war here?.we are talking about a marriage with Christ as the focus. Subjugated? Who is subjugated? Where does it say anything at all about women or more specifically wives (which is the topic) are supposed to be domineered, conquered of subjected to anything? subjugated? As in under enemy control? That?s an extreme if I ever heard one.

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Subjugated, as in "having power over". The bible says, enphasis mine:* Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. --Gen 3:16* And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.-- Num 31:15-19What do you suppose "for yourselves" means* And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her .... Thou shalt go in unto her.--Deut 21:11-13Must be great to have God sanction your rape* Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two?--Judges 5:30* But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning.--Judges 19:25* The head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man.--I Cor 11:3* For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.--I Cor11:7* Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak.... And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home. --I Cor 14:34-35* Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord--Eph 5:22* For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church.... Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.--Eph 5:23-24The Bible is pretty clear here. It doesn't say "Wives, submit to your husbands only when he is being reasonable, and you have leeway when he isn't."* Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands.--Col 3:18* Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.--I Tim 2:11-12* Teach the young women to be ... obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.--Titus 2:4* Wives, be in subjection to your own husbands.--I Peter 3:1

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Ok Ill go with the Merriam Webster definition of subjugated: 1. to bring under control and governance as a subject : CONQUER 2. to make submissive : SUBDUE

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That seems about right.

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Or how about the same thesaurus version of subjugated: CONQUER 1, bear down, beat down, crush, defeat, overpower, reduce, subdue, vanquish Related Word compel, coerce, force 2 Synonyms ENSLAVE, enthrall.

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That seems pretty accurate from a Biblical perspective.

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Well if you are going to choose to live by the biblical scriptures than yes one would have to assume that part is just as true as any other part.

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So, do you believe that bats are birds and that unicorns ever existed and that hares chew the cud and that there was a worldwide flood despite there not being a shred of physical evidence for any of these things?

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From what I hear to be able to call yourself a true Christian living a Christian way of life you cant pick and choose what you want to believe in and throw out the rest.

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Do you wear mixed fiber clothing? IT is an abomination to do so, according to the Bible. Do you stone homosexuals to death? You are commanded to do so by the Bible.

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To each his own, whether or not I believe it is irrelevant. I dont ever foresee myself getting married, I just gave my limited understanding of why it was set up that way in the Christian bible.

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Why give the reasons why it is set up that way, but then not address the objections and contradictions?I still dont think however it is as severe or demeaning as some make it out to be tho. I think there is some sort of common sense clause that if your husband asks you to do something against biblical laws or that is just down right mean or stupid then no, or course you are not supposed to submit.The husband is supposed to love his wife as he loves himself, (and as Christ loves the church) he is supposed to be Christ-like in his approach to her and by that definition he is obviously not supposed to abuse her in anyway or be overpowering, domineering or demeaning. So if he is holding up his end of the bargain and is treating her as Christ treats His church, then her part of the deal is to trust him and submit to his will as his will is supposed to be the same as the will of God (as so should hers).I still believe the general idea is to submit to one another as you submit unto Christ, but the husband will be the one held most accountable for his family unit when it comes down to it just as the church will held accountable to Christ and so on. Its like God is just saying, hey Eve dont make it hard on Adam, talk to hubby before you eat the next apple, and listen to him if he has got it right because its him that is going to take the whole blame next time. (ok maybe that is not what He is saying but that in IMO is how I interpreted it)I have certainly met men that seem to take that notion (of being the boss) to an extreme and are possessive and mean because they think the bible says its their right, but that is not what it says. It does not say Husbands, force your wives to submit, conquer them and beat them down if they don?t submit (as a matter of fact it says just the opposite), it simply says that the wife should willingly submit to her husband. It doesn?t say anything anywhere about forcing the wife to submit or to be subjugated, if it does please show me where.I think people too often times take things out of context, they see a line or two they like or dont like so they try capitalize on it and set it in stone or invalidate the whole thing. Like I said, to each his own.

Yeah, so you don't like spiritual and biblical marriages. Why all the big fuss? We don't impose our way of life upon people like you. We merely tell you what works and leave it up to you to decide.EDIT:You indicate that Christian wives are not respected. I'm telling you that you're wrong and you don't understand. I'm also telling you that Christian marriages do work and can be very happy relationships.It's been proven to me based on my own marriage and lifestyle. And it's irrelevant whether or not I can prove it to you or anyone else.------------------
What is intelligence without wisdom?[This message has been edited by Satcomm, 03-08-2003]

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Yeah, so you don't like spiritual and biblical marriages.

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I never said that.I still have no idea what it means to have a Biblical marriage. All of the explanations given to me were vague and contradictory.I truly do not think I am incapable of understanding most concepts if they are explained well. I am also in a successful marriage myself, so I do have some experience with this situation.All of you tried and tried to explain things to me, so you must have thought that it was explainable in the first place.I tend to think that the fault lies with the teachers, not the student, in this case.Or maybe the materials the teachers were given to teach do not lend themselves to inquiry or logical analysis.

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Why all the big fuss? We don't impose our way of life upon people like you.

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"People like me?" Just what kind of "people" am I, Satcomm?

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We merely tell you what works and leave it up to you to decide.

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Here is the real rub of the issue, Satcomm.First you say that "you don't impose your way of life on 'people like me'", but then you turn around and say, "We merely tell you what works and leave it up to you to decide." This strongly implies that you think that all marriages must be like yours to be successful.The only problem with this is that if you look at the divorce statistics, your way actually works less successfully than the national average. People who are in marriages where the gender roles are strict and the man is the leader of the family get divorced at a rate that is higher than the national average.You have always ignored these data completely, choosing instead to believe what you want to believe instead of what is reality.

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You indicate that Christian wives are not respected. I'm telling you that you're wrong and you don't understand. I'm also telling you that Christian marriages do work and can be very happy relationships.

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I never said they couldn't work or be happy. I was just exploring the question of if it is possible for a woman to be respected in a marriage when she does not hold as high a status as her husband. Is it possible for him to respect her if he can potentially impose his will upon hers?The fact that your response to this perfectly reasonable, logical conclusion that there is a leader in the marriage and it is always the man and never the woman is "you don't understand and I don't have to explain anything", is very telling.I don't think you can explain it. I can only assume that it is a glaring logical contradiction that you simply choose to ignore.

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It's been proven to me based on my own marriage and lifestyle. And it's irrelevant whether or not I can prove it to you or anyone else.

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...and yet you tried to explain it to me, and failed. All you were ever able to do is give vague rules that you follow, but any time I took them to their logical conclusions or asked detailed questions about the nature of what it means to be a leader in a marriage and what it means to not be the leader, you became very silent.I think it is VERY relevant whether or not you can explain it, because you basically say that yours is the model that is the very best way and that everyone should follow it if they want a successful marriage.If a participant in one of these "best" marriages, and the leader of one, can't even explain what it means to be the leader of said marriage, then what does that say about the quality of the model?I never said that individuals shouldn't do what they want to. What I am objecting to is the idea that you and others have had that your way is the best way for everyone, when the data show quite a different picture.Surely you realize that simply telling me "It works; believe me because I say so." is a pretty lame argument, don't you?I mean, I can explain how my marriage works quite easily, and in as much detail as you want.Also, I asked what temptations women are more prone to than men, and what biblical support you have for your idea that women must never lead a family or a church.

Schraf,First I'd like to start by saying I love and respect my wife, I think I've been able to show that Christian marriages are the not the dictatorship you thought.You have again made the statement that my wife is submitting to my will. I thought we talked about this in one of my last posts where I stated that in a Christian marriage the husband and the wife must put down their own personal will for God's will for the couple.You also made a statement about wives not holding as high a status as the husband. As Christians there is no status here, as we are all members of the body of Christ. Each with our own function and purpose. Who is to say that the heart has a higher status than the lung?When you look at Genesis it says about man and wife that the two shall be made one flesh, Jesus also talks about this exactly. So in marriage we have been made one flesh in God's eyes. If the members of your body did not submit to the head you would find that the body quickly became disfunctional.The head cannot survive without the body and, likewise the body the without the head. The two must function together, neither is more important, or holds more status than the other.In a Christian marriage the "body" must be in submission to Christ. Not just one part but the whole.This said Christs will should be the will of the "body", it should be a body led by God so that the body can accomplish the will of God.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

Hehe, I think I struck a nerve.I became silent because this topic didn't particularly interest me anymore. The same thing was being said from both sides over and over again. I accepted the conclusions that:1) You don't understand.
2) You lash out and attack what you don't understand.
3) Christian marriages do have the capacity of working, regardless of statistics.
4) Many Christian wives are well respected and are not "held back" or "suppressed".
5) It's unnecessary for me or anyone else to "prove" it to you because your mind is already made up as to what works and what doesn't work.------------------
What is intelligence without wisdom?[This message has been edited by Satcomm, 03-10-2003]

I am unable to debate that way of life because its not mine. I follow the Torah not the modern Christian bible and in particular not the New Testament. So I cant really argue the point. I just gave my limited understanding.Jewish traditions are different than that of Christian. We also have the rabbinical teachings to help us make sense of the Torah and we are almost always in struggle with the written word. Buts thats our way, thats how we learn, and how we adapt.And no, I dont know anything about unicorns, or bats other than I have to rescue the neonates (bats) every year from our company parking lot, and no I dont wear mixed fiber only all cotton or silk clothing, no comment on the homosexual issue, to each his/her own.There were many stories of strong and godly women who were well respected in the bible and the Torah, please dont negate their greatness by only focusing on what you perceive negative. And no there is no definitive proof of anything, that’s why its called faith. I cant even prove that I am sitting here typing, maybe this is just my perceived altered reality? Or someone else’sha ha.And yes I believe for the most part the bible is almost like folklore, a little fact and a little fiction. Not to be taken absolutely literal word for word.Well I think I must have made a mistake coming here thinking I might learn something. I dont see the point in attacking someone’s faith, its a bit like trying to make someone prove they have a particular emotion, or that they have happy marriage, its too abstract, it too open to interpretation. How can anyone provide definitive proof of his or her perception of a concept?Have a nice day.

Do you believe in hell?

Harmonization,I would very much like to talk with you. Please e mail me.

Not the Christian based concept of hell. And this is where it gets a bit complicated, the concepts of heaven and hell are vastly different between the two religions.To us, (and I cant speak for every sect since I fall into the reformed category) hell means death, physical and spiritual death, period. No fiery pit, no scary red man with horns and a tail, none of that. Just death. We dont follow the laws to get a reward or avoid punishment, we follow them because we are commanded to by God in the Torah and further instructed in the rabbinical teachings of the Talmud.If we dont live the laws or choose not to believe, to our own detriment, we loose our spiritual inner self, we cut ourselves off, from God and our own people. I cant explain every aspect of my belief here so I will just leave it at that.Not everyone agrees with believing in God, higher power, Creator, whatever, thats ok. To each his/her own. But there is nothing that can ever dissuade me from believing in God, however that doesn’t mean that I don’t want to learn about the world I live in. I still believe that the two (evolution and creation) can support each other, not just rip each other apart.And since this is now off topic, have a nice day.

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First I'd like to start by saying I love and respect my wife, I think I've been able to show that Christian marriages are the not the dictatorship you thought.

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Well, yes and no.I still do not really know what it means to be a leader in a Christian marriage, and what it means to be a follower in a Christian marriage.I can't even get you or anyone here to tell me how you can be a leader in your marriage at all times, yet you can submit to your wife, too. Who is leading when you are submitting, and/or how can you do both at the same time?I hope you do not blame me for my confusion here, because I am not the one who made the claim that this is what happens.Is it an unreasonable question?

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You have again made the statement that my wife is submitting to my will. I thought we talked about this in one of my last posts where I stated that in a Christian marriage the husband and the wife must put down their own personal will for God's will for the couple.

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But then how is there a leader in a marriage without a follower?If you lead, then your wife must follow, correct? If you lead, then at some point your wife is submitting her will and/or abdicating some descisions she could make equally with you or on her own, to you.This is only what you have explained to me as what happens in your non-egalitarian marriage. Please correct me if I am wrong about what you have said.

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You also made a statement about wives not holding as high a status as the husband. As Christians there is no status here, as we are all members of the body of Christ. Each with our own function and purpose. Who is to say that the heart has a higher status than the lung?

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The lungs and heart collaborate on everything, though. The heart doesn't make ultimate descisions about what both organs will do, or vice versa.You have implied that the responsibility on certain descisions rests ultimately with you but not your wife. This is not what happens with organs.I would agree that the heart and lung analogy works in an egalitarian, leaderless marriage, but not with a leader/follower model.

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When you look at Genesis it says about man and wife that the two shall be made one flesh, Jesus also talks about this exactly. So in marriage we have been made one flesh in God's eyes. If the members of your body did not submit to the head you would find that the body quickly became disfunctional.

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"One flesh" also implies no leader, or equal partnership, rather than a male leader and a female follower.

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The head cannot survive without the body and, likewise the body the without the head. The two must function together, neither is more important, or holds more status than the other.

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I am sorry, but there seems to be a lot more in the Bible indicating that men are of a higher status than women than not. If you are choosing to downplay this, fine, but then you don't have much Biblical ground to stand on to support your idea that there must be a male leader in every marriage, because it seems to me that then it's just picking and choosing what you will follow literally and what you will take as metaphor.

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In a Christian marriage the "body" must be in submission to Christ. Not just one part but the whole. This said Christs will should be the will of the "body", it should be a body led by God so that the body can accomplish the will of God.

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I understand this, but then why must the man always lead the marriage? It does not follow from "one flesh" and the "body" of the marriage must submit to Christ, to "the man must lead the woman."[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-11-2003]