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Author Topic:   Knowing God
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 16 of 93 (358304)
10-23-2006 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by iano
10-23-2006 10:54 AM


Re: Knowing God
I'm not sure what the topic is to be honest. I can tell a person what its like to know God. And I can point to things in the Bible that would support that what I experience is what the Bible says a person will experience. I can say that I experienced a peace about things - that everything was going to be okay. And can point to the Bible saying that a person will experience a peace beyond all understanding.
Personally, I don't think reading the Bible is critical to coming to know Jesus in the first instance.
The reason I pointed PTB to the Bible was that he didn't refer to it, or to church experience or to anything except the name Jesus, which unfortunately is a name that has been falsely appropriated by many, including many cults, and it is even said in those contexts that they "know" him, or "have a relationship" with him, although if their knowledge about him is wrong it is simply not the case that they know him, it's some form of deception. (They also claim to get it from the Bible of course so there's no way out of this dilemma in the end).
I would agree that you don't have to know the Bible thoroughly if you have a basic sense of who Jesus is, but your view of Jesus does have to be Biblical, at least based on good Biblical preaching, otherwise "knowing" him isn't going to have any genuine foundation. And, of course, you have to believe it. Believing it is the start of knowing him in my experience.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by iano, posted 10-23-2006 10:54 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by kuresu, posted 10-23-2006 12:39 PM Faith has replied
 Message 25 by iano, posted 10-23-2006 3:48 PM Faith has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 17 of 93 (358306)
10-23-2006 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
10-23-2006 12:21 PM


Re: Knowing God
I'd agree with iano:
Personally, I don't think reading the Bible is critical to coming to know Jesus in the first instance.
you make the claim that there are many cults who "claim" to know jesus based off of their interpretation of the bible, but quite naturally, they're wrong (according to you).
Here's a question--what if you're interpretation of the bible is wrong? It's just as likely as the cult's misinterpretation. You're
good Biblical preaching
, the basis for "knowing" jesus has no standing. The cult's can have an equally
good Biblical preaching
for knowing jesus.
to the PTB:
I just stick to staying a human, "sinful" faults and all, and not worry about some guy in the sky. much, much less dilemmas in my world. as Jar put it, knowing jesus is a crock (though he said this for a different reason).

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 10-23-2006 12:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 10-23-2006 12:50 PM kuresu has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 18 of 93 (358307)
10-23-2006 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by kuresu
10-23-2006 12:39 PM


Re: Knowing God
The problem with your analysis is that Iano has the same Biblical understanding of Jesus that I have, and is far from supporting any of the cultist Jesuses. When he said you don't have to read the Bible he was simply emphasizing that knowing Jesus is something that we have apart from the Bible, through experience, through personal communication with him, etc, but it is nevertheless Jesus as revealed in the Bible and taught by the orthodox Bible-believing churches he is talking about.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by kuresu, posted 10-23-2006 12:39 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by kuresu, posted 10-23-2006 2:31 PM Faith has replied
 Message 23 by Straggler, posted 10-23-2006 3:34 PM Faith has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 19 of 93 (358321)
10-23-2006 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
10-23-2006 12:50 PM


Re: Knowing God
hey, I also agree with Jar's statement, that knowing jesus in this life is a crock. that doesn't mean that I agree with his reasons for making that statement.
as a side note, do you know George Washington? How 'bout Abe Lincoln? If, as you say, the best way to "know" jesus is to understand the bible, can I then "know" Washington and Lincoln in the same way? Because I thought you all meant "know" as in having a personal relationship with jesus. But if you can get that from a book, then can't I get that same relationship from a historically accurate book about Washington (you do hold the bible to be historically accurate about at least jesus, right?)?
"knowing" jesus from the bible is still a crock.
(and you didn't even touch on the problem with knowing jesus based off of your interpretation of the bible)

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 10-23-2006 12:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 10-23-2006 3:12 PM kuresu has not replied
 Message 24 by iano, posted 10-23-2006 3:37 PM kuresu has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 93 (358327)
10-23-2006 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Straggler
10-23-2006 12:20 PM


Re: Knowing God
your opinion is one of many. My belief is that God created man long before man had the ability to imagine god(s). There is only one of them, IMHO.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Straggler, posted 10-23-2006 12:20 PM Straggler has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 21 of 93 (358329)
10-23-2006 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by kuresu
10-23-2006 2:31 PM


Re: Knowing God
as a side note, do you know George Washington? How 'bout Abe Lincoln? If, as you say, the best way to "know" jesus is to understand the bible, can I then "know" Washington and Lincoln in the same way? Because I thought you all meant "know" as in having a personal relationship with jesus. But if you can get that from a book, then can't I get that same relationship from a historically accurate book about Washington (you do hold the bible to be historically accurate about at least jesus, right?)?
No, because Washington and Lincoln are finite human beings who are dead. Jesus can be known because he is the living God, all-knowing and present everywhere at once.
"knowing" jesus from the bible is still a crock.
(and you didn't even touch on the problem with knowing jesus based off of your interpretation of the bible)
There's no problem there to be discussed. I gave my view of it, which you are free to ignore -- preferably politely if you can bring yourself to do so.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 22 of 93 (358330)
10-23-2006 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
10-23-2006 2:54 PM


Re: Knowing God
Personally I think your belief is the result of indoctrination but obviously you and everyone else should have a right to believe whatever they like.
As long as no physical role is put forward for gods or any other supernatural beings I have no real argument with anyone and their personal beliefs.
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This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 23 of 93 (358338)
10-23-2006 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
10-23-2006 12:50 PM


Re: Knowing God
The problem with your analysis is that Iano has the same Biblical understanding of Jesus that I have, and is far from supporting any of the cultist Jesuses
All that shows is that you have both been indoctrinated by the same material. You are both members of a more widespread cult.
I would hazard a guess that you are both from and/or live in a predominantly Christian country. I would also suggest it very likely that you are both from fairly Christian families. The vast majority of those of faith have exactly the same beliefs that are predominant in the culture and families in which they are raised.
If you had been born in an Islamic country and raised by Muslims there is little doubt that you would be a muslim and would be claiming to "know" Allah in exactly the same way that you claim to know Christ just as every devout Muslim does indeed claim.
You "know" what you have been indoctrinated to believe.
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This message is a reply to:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 24 of 93 (358340)
10-23-2006 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by kuresu
10-23-2006 2:31 PM


Re: Knowing God
hey, I also agree with Jar's statement, that knowing jesus in this life is a crock.
Thats an argument from ignorance (with all due respect) as was Jars.
jar writes:
folk that tell you they "Know" Jesus as opposed to just believing they know Jesus are pretty much just fooling themselves. It is unlikely that any of us can know Jesus or GOD or the Holy Spirit while we are living.
See the bets being hedged? "Pretty much"/"unlikely that". These are unquantified units although Jar wouldn't make the mistake of saying that a person cannot know Jesus - EvC veteran that he is.
But if you can get that from a book, then can't I get that same relationship from a historically accurate book about Washington (you do hold the bible to be historically accurate about at least jesus, right?)?
The Bible a book? At 985 posts and you've grasped so little. You heard it said of the Bible that it is the word of God haven't you. Irrespective of whether you believe this or not it should lead you to some conclusions. God "spoke" the world into existance didn't he. Do you suppose there would be a little more to his word than the word of a book? Irrespective of whether you believe it or not, I mean?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by kuresu, posted 10-23-2006 2:31 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 25 of 93 (358344)
10-23-2006 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
10-23-2006 12:21 PM


Re: Knowing God
I suppose I can only speak from experience. I knew of God before I had done much with the Bible except perhaps consider its thin pages ideal joint rolling material. The Bible confirmed the experience in a way which made me look on it as the word of God.
I had a peace about things which I couldn't describe or understand. The problems hadn't gone away but it didn't seem to matter - it was all going to be okay. Then I came across "a peace which surpasses all understanding".
It made me take notice of what else it had to say. That's why I said not essential for coming to know. But it could happen the other way around like it happened to Luther. You read and then you suddenly get it.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 28 by Straggler, posted 10-23-2006 4:44 PM iano has replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4991 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 26 of 93 (358359)
10-23-2006 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by iano
10-23-2006 3:37 PM


Re: Knowing God
Iano writes:
These are unquantified units although Jar wouldn't make the mistake of saying that a person cannot know Jesus - EvC veteran that he is.
I know Jesus. He tells me he's never heard of you.
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Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 27 of 93 (358360)
10-23-2006 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by iano
10-23-2006 3:48 PM


Re: Knowing God
iano
I knew of God before I had done much with the Bible except perhaps consider its thin pages ideal joint rolling material
Is that the origin of the term "holy smoke" then?
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 28 of 93 (358368)
10-23-2006 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by iano
10-23-2006 3:48 PM


Re: Knowing God
I knew of God before I had done much with the Bible except perhaps consider its thin pages ideal joint rolling materia
I had a peace about things which I couldn't describe or understand. The problems hadn't gone away but it didn't seem to matter - it was all going to be okay. Then I came across "a peace which surpasses all understanding".
Maybe the dope you were smoking was stronger than you anticipated
Seriously though - The bible the word of God? Have you read the Koran? That also claims to be the word of God and at least has the advantage of not being repeatedly edited in order to advocate one political position or another as has been done with the bible over the centuries.
The bible is a mish mash of pagan beliefs repackaged, rebranded and manipulated over time.
1) Genesis is in large part a rehashing of the ancient Gilgamesh myth (garden, naked, corrupted by woman, wickednesss into the pure world, great flood as punishment etc. etc.)
2) Mithra the Roman deity (also Mitra the Indian God of the Sun and Persian Mithra) was born of a virgin, crucified and resurrected 3 days later, his birth was celebrated on the winter solstice and his resurrection celebrated at the time we now call Easter, his followers took part in a ritual involving bread and wine and the first Christian places of worship were built on temples originally devoted to him
3) Among the religions of the day incorporating a crucifixion myth, for example, were the mystery religions of Attis, Adonis, Dionysus, and several others. Dionisus, for example, was depicted as being given a crown of ivy, dressed in a purple robe, and was given gall to drink before his crucifixion. The depiction on a Greek vase from the 5th century B.C.E. even shows a communion being prepared.
Go figure.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by iano, posted 10-23-2006 3:48 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by iano, posted 10-23-2006 4:48 PM Straggler has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 29 of 93 (358369)
10-23-2006 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Straggler
10-23-2006 4:44 PM


Re: Knowing God
You call that objection?
Your a pussy compared to me Straggler.
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This message is a reply to:
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 Message 31 by Straggler, posted 10-23-2006 4:59 PM iano has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 30 of 93 (358371)
10-23-2006 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by iano
10-23-2006 3:37 PM


Re: Knowing God
Thats an argument from ignorance
not really. how can I "know" a guy who's been dead a hundred times (roughly) longer than I've been alive?
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You heard it said of the Bible that it is the word of God haven't you
sure I have. I don't buy it. Especially if you consider the NT to be the word of god. why the hell would god give four conflicting accounts, plus all the other gospels not included in the various versions? oh, I know. They're not really contradictory (the big four), and the rest were written by false men. spare me the BS, please.
The bible is nothing more than a book, at most, a guidebook for how to live life. It has fairy tales, legends, some history, and makes lots of claims. It, at best, is a book that explains a culture. At worst, it is a book that advocates and inspires some pretty evil atrocities.
Irrespective of whether you believe this or not it should lead you to some conclusions. God "spoke" the world into existance didn't he. Do you suppose there would be a little more to his word than the word of a book? Irrespective of whether you believe it or not, I mean?
I don't even know what you're asking here. Are you asking me to trust in what you say? Or are you attemtping a conversion? Please clarify.
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This message is a reply to:
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