Random God Rant

Hehe. Ya, I may have been a bit to feisty I just feel a little annoyed when I bring fourth a large body of research and I basicaly have it hand waved. I expect more than simply "I can't be wrong, you must be wrong."

So after saving yer butt from CK you call me stupid huh?That's gratitude for you. (Walks away softly shaking head)

One aspect I find fascinating in the Gospel is the sheer mechanical beauty of it. Single words can have a huge significance. One line "The wages of sin is death" Wages are something earned, so we die because we have earned the wages of sin. We get what we're due.God sacrificing Jesus as an expression of his love is not quite it. God sacrificed his son for one reason, so that the due wage for sin, which legally (God is just(ice)), must be issued, could be issued. Sin must get what it has earned. Gods motivation for doing what he did was love but love is like the cover of a book, the contents are the Gospel. This is one chapter: God designs away whereby his love and his justice can both be satisfied. All the elements of Jesus time on earth were aimed at a key moment. His crucifixion. His time on earth fulfilled other chapters in the book amongst which, setting up the foundations of the church (not Religion or buildings or rules etc) In the bible the church is simply the believers themselves, the body who has Jesus as head. Jesus had a perfect relation with his father all this time - he always obeyed his father so there was no separation between them. Only at the cross did that relationship get broken, as the sin of man was laid upon him and punished in him by death. Death by the way isn't just the physical, it is spiritual separation from God. A non believer is already separated spiritually from God, his spirit is born dead - from whence 'born again', whereby a spirit comes alive. Hell is a place where separation from God is permanent and total - no access to Gods providential character which makes (or can make) life on earth enjoyable There are all kinds of messages in the Bible. And ones that anybody can see are good messages: "do unto others as you would have done unto you" is a very wise saying. Following these makes for a better time on earth for everybody. But it doesn't make a difference to the main message: you are a sinner and no good works will result in you avoiding the horrendous judgement that will come on sin. There is only one way to escape it and that's the message of the bible. Don't sweat the small stuff. Go for goal..... Question for you: how do you make a creature who can love you with all of it's heart, like really top class love, if you don't give it free will. Think of any parent whose 20 year old sets out on life. Does the parent know that the child is likely to get into trouble, that they might fall in love with a moron because they don't know what real love is yet and get into messy, hurtful divorces later. Should the parent keep the child at home to prevent it happening. Love doesn't mean sentimentality. Love can be tough too. Often the greatest love is very tough.God doesn't want some sham sentimental love - he wants it to be total. Not only has he every right to set his standard where he wants but as anyone who gets captivated by it, they come to agree that his way was best. Me, I spent 38 years farting around in the wilderness. Do I blame God for all those 'wasted' years. Not a bit. I realise it was me, I realise he was calling all the while, I realise I kept saying NO!. It's easy to see after the fact 20/20 hindsight an all that - but not seeing it as it doesn't mean it isn't as it is.It's tough alriight but "God wants that none should perish but that all should come to repentance" (repentance meaning turning away from self-reliance to God-reliance). He's made a way where all can come into this relationship. All can choose, all have an equal chance irrespective of circumstances. If one doesn't chose, they will come to see with 20/20 hindsight that the only blame for it is their own. If the rules were meant as a way to get to heaven then you'd have a point. But the purpose of the rules isn't that we abide by them but to see that we can't abide by them. The fault for us not being able to abide by them is not Gods. He gave choice to people who had never sinned. They had no infection to make them likely to sin. Simple unadulterated choice. If you want to blame someone blame Adam and Eve. Knowing what what somebody is going to do is not the same as making them do it. God set up the conditions of choice. He knew what the choice was going to be - not because the dice was loaded. It was a simple choice: obey God or not. Realise your position as created and thus subject to the creator...or not. Adam and Eve weren't flawed before the fall. They were perfect. And they had this choice....You seem to think the dice was loaded because they chose one way. If they had chosen the other would you say the dice was loaded too? You seem to have God in a catch-22. Note: I say 'seem' Like I said, that bit of the post was my take based on lack of biblical revelation. It makes sense to me but I wouldn't form a doctrine on it. What, by the way, has copied/re-written/re-told over the years have anything to do with it (if your implying the Bible is inaccurate/unreliable/distorted then as our old friend CK would say
"please provide reliable sources for your assertion"oops...that time!! Pint of Guinness awaits. L8r....

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

What??!! You mean you STILL believe it. I thought the aim of this site was knowledge and understanding through discussion(Iano tilts back his head and howls sorrowfully to the Lord ...)

I know what you mean. Us "scripture junkies" feel the same way.... but a lady is a lady at the end of the day.(It's amazing what the back of your mothers hand for backchat can do to a growing lad....)

Is this some universal law that Justice (the wage for sin) must be issued? Does God not have the ability to circumvent universal laws? Is god not outside/above universal restrictions? As I have said... free will doesn't/didn't come into it. As per your own statement, we were doomed to 'fall' THERE WAS NO CHOICE HERE not in any real sense.Question for you: How do you make a creature that you can love/ or can love you if you resign it to hell before its birth? nope, but should the parent send this child out to certain doom? Should the parents concieve this child if they know it will be subject to hell?
(I say "hell" because if we are not saved we go to hell. God knew that a large portion of humanity(the majority?) would not be saved, thus... certain hell) WHAT? God created us... God created the rules... If we have a flaw, it was part of God's great Design, no? Or are you suggesting that God made a mistake in our design? *gasp* (your parent/child anaolgy will not get you out of this one.. God had total control in our design, he had the ability to give us better judgement, or better understanding about the world in which he put us... he chose not to... he chose to watch us fall, and he chose to punish us for not being saved) God created us in his own image... Is God Flawed too? You're not getting it are you? God created these beings... He knew they would make the WRONG choice.. he sat idly by and watched them do it.Back to your child analogy: Give a child a choice between eating sweets all day every day or eating healthy food.. which choice will the child take? The sweets, every parent knows this, and thus every (responsible) parent will not give their child that choice. That is the responsibility that comes with parenthood.
God however knew Adam and Eve would make the wrong choice... a choice which would be the ruin of all mankind. But yet he still presented them with that choice. is this an act of Love? Is this the act of someone who loves mankind? really? I fail to understand how you can blank yourself off from this. I suspect we wouldn't be having this conversation, we'd be running round Eden comparing fig leaves.

On the other hand, we dont't HAVE to get to know the concept. In that sense, it is not Gods "fault" that we spiritually "mutated" to a point where He is no longer instinctual.(inner impartation)This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-22-2005 02:49 PM

Quite an impressive post, Yaro! Some of us were taught these stories...but an additional factor in my life was when I first knew that God was real. And it was before all of the church indoctorination. I can see where a rational, detached scientific mind would dismiss the Bible beforehand, however. What strikes me as odd is how you are so detached.EXAMPLE:Premise: God exists.Facts: Bunches of zealots, religious wars, and no sign of peace. No voice in head. No prickly conscience. Other, better formed human derived explanations.Conclusion: God is unlikely.Why be SO detached? No wonder you can't hear Him!

I was specifically referring to the creation of Adam and Eve here but, you aptly illustrate my point. We are born Fallen as a result of the Choice adam and eve made, a choice the bible (and Iano) tells us was inevitable. So not really a choice at all. God created man and woman in the full knowledge they would fall. thus condemning mankind to an existance of sin, leading ultimately to damnation. not the act of a loving father. I guess my point is. given what eveidence I have of the behaviour of God, I feel no desire to get to know him, (If I, for a second assume he exists) he seems to me to be cruel and loveless. But HE created us, HE designed us. Surely he takes responsibility for the flaws in our design?

Thats the whole point of why we are NOT doomed. He took the responsibility for the flaws.Of course, I respect the fact that you are learning and trying to see the world as it really is. I personally believe that He finds us..we never find Him. Thus, my advice for you is to keep an open mind, keep studying, and like me, do the best that you can each day. Some days are better than others. (Cool name, BTW. )

Hmmmmm....not sure how God taking Responsibility for the flaws in his design equates with us all being damned as sinners.I most certainly am learning, and I like to theink my name reflects my open mind. I push hard with questions so I can be satisfied with the answers.

I'm not gonna explain it to you because I know that you want to learn it on your own! Mutation=flaws=spiritual death. A mystery, fo sho!
Of course, that is my belief, not necessarily yours. Like I said, keep an open mind, keep asking questions, and keep learning!This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-22-2005 04:28 PM

But I did give more than that. Unfortunately, your research didn't say much that's new. Christians get that kind of information in various Bible studies. The fact that the Babylonian stories predate the Bible simply does not prove either that the Bible is myth or that all the Bible did was copy those myths. That is just a leap to an unwarranted conclusion, and I gave a contrary scenario that shows it is not the only possible relation of the two.They shared a culture but the Bible is God's own revelation. Also, Abraham's family descended from Shem, but the Chaldeans were not Shemites and therefore possibly had a different line of tradition concerning the creation and the flood, the Shem line preserving the story more accurately.These are reasonable explanations.This link is to a concise report of the Lineage from Noah. The site has no interest to me otherwise.This message has been edited by Faith, 09-22-2005 07:47 PM

Faith, don't you see that you are the one making the foregone conclusion?You have already assumed that there WAS a global flood, you ASSUME that there was a NOAH. Both of those things have NO evidence outside of their sources to back them up, further, the claims made are ludicrous!...Oh, nevermind. You belive in Noah's ark, and there is no amount of evidence that will change your mind. Sorry to bother.

Foregone conclusion, sure, I believe the Bible, so of course. But you present your research as if it were evidence against the Bible and it simply is not. The fact that the Babylonian myths predate the Bible simply is not this open-and-shut evidence against the claim that the Bible version is the accurate one that you think it is. I've given reasons why it is not a necessary conclusion from the facts at all. It's an unwarranted logical leap. If the evidence were better I'd still believe the Bible, but I'd have to concede that the evidence is strong for your side. But that isn't the case here. That evidence is stronger for MY side.That the Babylonian view of the cosmos is identical to the Bible's is GREAT confirmation of the Bible description. Where would they get the idea of waters above and below except from their shared history? Where would they get the idea of the location of Sheol and the windows of heaven -- which they certainly could not SEE, except from their shared history and the stories passed down from Eden? What the Bible shows about fallen human nature and the cultural context of the calling of Abraham is confirmed by these myths. Wouldn't a realistic history SUPPORT the true ideas of the local culture? Wherever there is a discrepancy we simply answer that the Bible is revealed by God and corrects the earlier distortions in the stories. It makes perfect sense. But this is irrelevant to the fact that what you presented as evidence simply is not evidence, and is easily used as support for my view -- and IS used for my view. Again, Yaro, what you presented is NOT the terrific evidence you seem to think it is. Your "evidence" is this one fact that the other myths predate the Bible. Period. We KNOW this already. It simply is NOT proof of what you think it is. It is easy to show how a later story can be more correct than earlier versions, and in the case of the Bible, what the Bible has to say about fallenness and the cultural context of its events, happens to explain the differences.It appears to be merely YOUR foregone conclusion that the Bible is false that is the basis for your view, as the evidence just is not evidence.Enough. I think the point is clear.