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Author Topic:   Proof for God's Non-existance?
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 317 (420418)
09-07-2007 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
09-07-2007 6:25 PM


I would like any Atheists to post their proof of God's non-existence in this thread.
Well, Jon, even the most hard-headed atheist would likely agree that if something does not exist, its unfalsifiable. So, I don't know how much play you'll get in this thread.
At most, the atheist can reason that there is no good reason to assume God exists anymore than (s)he should reason that a flying purple elephant exists in the 3rd dimension.
No, they can't prove its non-existence, but they'll just say that there is no good reason to assume otherwise.

"I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death." -Leonardo da Vinci

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 09-07-2007 6:25 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Jon, posted 09-07-2007 7:13 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 317 (420517)
09-08-2007 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Jon
09-07-2007 7:13 PM


A - theos (negative God) = there is no God
But then they are not Atheists; they are Agnostics. From Wikipedia on Atheism
:
quote:
:Atheism, as a philosophical view, is the position that either affirms the nonexistence of gods[1] or rejects theism.
Atheism does not just sit back an nonchalantly decide not to participate. Atheism stands right up and forcefully declares that there is no God. I just want to know what evidence such Atheists use to come to that conclusion.
You're absolutely right, which is why I have suggested to a number of atheists that it might be in their best interests to at least give agnosticism a closer look.
I've made this argument before that to truly be an atheist, one has to posit the non-existence of God in terms of absolution. Obviously, no one can truly do that. Absolute knowledge of the universe would have to be known in order to posit such a thing and be right.
I should make a note here, now. This thread is not about the definition of Atheist.
Too late. After you said what you just did, they will come out of the woodwork to play a game of semantics with you, even though you are surely correct.

"I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death." -Leonardo da Vinci

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Jon, posted 09-07-2007 7:13 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by crashfrog, posted 09-08-2007 12:18 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 317 (420559)
09-08-2007 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by crashfrog
09-08-2007 12:18 PM


Re: A - theos (negative God) = there is no God
Atheism and agnosticism are the exact same thing.
How can someone affirming that there is no God be the same as someone saying that they have yet to see any conclusive evidence either way? I've met agnostics leaning either closer to theism or atheism, but the very defining point about agnosticism is that its a tentative disposition.
I'm both. I'm an agnostic atheist. I'm a 6 on the Dawkins scale, like Dawkins himself. Like Dawkins I have no problem making the statement "there almost certainly is no such thing as God." A statement that I believe the evidence abundantly supports.
Agnostic:
Atheist:
    Why distinguish terms if its really just the same thing?
    It's hardly necessary to have perfect knowledge to come to conclusions about things, Indeed, if it were, science would be impossible.
    To be an atheist is to explicitly claim that there is no God. This is an absolute statement, meaning that the claim is certainly true. Many have no doubt realized the implications for making such a definitive claim. Now or days, it is virtually impossible in distinguishing an agnostic from an atheist. What I mean to say, is, their new interpretation allows them to still refer to themselves as atheists, because they now call themselves, ”weak atheists.’ Basically, this is an invented term that is no different from agnosticism, except that, they get to retain the coveted title, ”atheist.’
    Nevertheless, here is where the rubber meets the road: To claim, without reservation, that there is no God, leaves the claimant with the burden of proof to shoulder, not the theist. For the atheist to purport definitively that there is no God would mean that he has all-knowledge. If then, he has all-knowledge, he himself, would be God; and so he would actually nullify his own argument.
    For instance, if we were to categorically state there are no monkeys living in Peru, what would that take to prove? It would mean that we would have to traverse the entire Peruvian landscape. We would have to trek through the densest jungles, go through every residence, every business, every church, every school, and even every sewer. Every space, within the boundaries of Peru, would have to be sought out completely.
    Consequently, to prove this false, all that is required is to find just one monkey. If even one monkey is found, then the entire case against such is effectively dismantled. In addition, if he cannot complete the task, simply because he cannot exist in all spaces simultaneously, this also acts to discredit him. He then must concede that his statement is an assertion based on little more than guesswork.
    The same rule applies when speaking about God. Would it not then, be much more prudent to simply state, “With the limited knowledge I have at the present time, I cannot answer whether or not there is a God. I have no real reason to assume that God exists, and so, I will operate under the pretense that no such God exists. However, it is unprovable.” If he were to state this, he would then be an agnostic.

    "I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death." -Leonardo da Vinci

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 28 by crashfrog, posted 09-08-2007 12:18 PM crashfrog has replied

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     Message 34 by crashfrog, posted 09-08-2007 1:43 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

    Hyroglyphx
    Inactive Member


    Message 282 of 317 (422316)
    09-16-2007 8:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 280 by ringo
    09-16-2007 8:01 PM


    Seeing is believing saith the skeptic
    I know that's all your saying. I'd like you to be answering the question: Why do I fail to observe God in my fridge if He's "everywhere"? If I fail to observe God, in fact anywhere, why?
    Atoms are everywhere too, but you won't be observing them in your fridge. Should we assume atoms don't exist by your logic?

    "It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 280 by ringo, posted 09-16-2007 8:01 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 284 by ringo, posted 09-16-2007 8:49 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

    Hyroglyphx
    Inactive Member


    Message 286 of 317 (422325)
    09-16-2007 8:54 PM
    Reply to: Message 284 by ringo
    09-16-2007 8:49 PM


    Re: Seeing is believing saith the skeptic
    You have got to be kidding. My fridge is chock-full of atoms.
    Observations don't have to be direct, you know.
    Heh...
    Then my fridge is chock-full of God. Observations don't have to be direct. you know.
    Hey Ringo, it is better to shun the bait than struggle in the snare.

    "It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 284 by ringo, posted 09-16-2007 8:49 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 288 by jar, posted 09-16-2007 8:57 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
     Message 289 by ringo, posted 09-16-2007 9:00 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

    Hyroglyphx
    Inactive Member


    Message 291 of 317 (422331)
    09-16-2007 9:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 288 by jar
    09-16-2007 8:57 PM


    Re: Seeing is believing saith the skeptic
    But anyone can confirm that his fridge is full of atoms.
    That is not true of your assertion.
    Well, then, he can also confirm the non-existence of God too, seeing as that is the premise of the topic.

    "It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 288 by jar, posted 09-16-2007 8:57 PM jar has not replied

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