Proof for God's Non-existance?

Interesting thing about the God/ No God scenario. It is that God has a hand up on all things in the argument. It is that God made a claim(He created everything) and that we have yet to prove Him wrong.While the scriptures offer numerous claims by God in reference to our existence, the biggest would be that He Created heaven and earth. While many argue that we have no tangible *evidence from which to measure God's presence or existence, they fail to consider the implication that all matter and life itself is of His own doing.In much the same way, we could ask to prove that God did not Create all things which surround us. To this we have theories(big bang etc), but none of them really touch the regions of God Creation though.

I noticed that you did not mention in your list the characteristics of Interactivity. In the case where God is concerned, we have several millions of people praying and claiming to have a measurable connection with God. We do not however, have people claiming to have connections with Santa, the Tooth-fairy or Tinker-bell.(1) I wonder also, do we have fictional books claimed to be inspired by forces beyond our own?(2) What do we make of the origin or created point of the character? Does God have a point of creation? Are the scriptures comparable in any way to common fictional books where negativity and preservation is concerned? I have studied the preservation of the scriptures throughout recorded history and it's survival is nothing short of miraculous from an archaeological standpoint. Santa, the tooth fairy and others are actually on the way out as we progress socially and intellectually.(3) I don't really see the application of this point is.(4) True, then again, it would seem as though the origin of myth and fictional story books stem from the roots of God and the supernatural. In a case where ghosts, spirits, living souls, and the such are concerned, they all seem to originate from a common source.

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Irrelevant. An author is an author no matter how they are inspired.

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Really, so if God was the author of the ten commandments, where does this get placed on your wishlist?

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When the first story was created and passed on.

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True, should we even bother to mention that it was claimed(created) at the beginning of human existence?

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The character no longer exists once the medium is gone.

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I think it's safe to say that God is immune this characteristic.

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(4) True, then again, it would seem as though the origin of myth and fictional story books stem from the roots of God and the supernatural. In a case where ghosts, spirits, living souls, and the such are concerned, they all seem to originate from a common source.

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Imagination

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Do we have any books other than the scriptures that predate this? The scriptures seem to parent all other fictional books where supernatural and paralleling universes are concerned. Or do we have something older?

I also noticed that you did not include a tangibility factor in your list. In a case where the book or fairytale provides measurable or tangible evidence within it's content. For example, in the case where the scriptures give prophecies. I think such characteristics would remain outstanding.Do we have any comparable fairytales with such characteristics in it?

Are you speaking from a personal observation or referring to something you have read somewheres? The scriptures are filled with conditions, commands, prophesies and facts stated by God that have stood the test of time and remain unchanged or unsurmountable. Here are a few to help put things into perspective.Anatomy: The Bible accurately listed the parts of a human embryo(Psalm 139:13-16) The brain, the heart, the lungs, the eyes”these and all the other body parts were recorded in the genetic code of the fertilized egg in the mother's womb. Including the internal timetables for the appearance of each of these parts in proper order. So lets just think about this, this fact about the development of the human body was recorded almost 3,000 years before scientists discovered the genetic code.Archeology: Biblical kings, cities, and nations have been discovered with the discovery of clay tablets, pottery and inscriptions. For example; such people as the Hittites mentioned in the Scriptures actually did exist(Exodus 3:8). A renown researcher once observed that people who have shaken their own faith in the Bible, and undermined its authority, in turn undermined themselves by the evidence that has been brought to light. The spade(as it were) is driving destructive criticism out of the field of questionable facts into that of recognized fiction.Astronomy: Over 2,700 years ago(before people knew the earth is round), the prophet Isaiah wrote about the one who is dwelling above the circle of the earth(Isaiah 40:22). The Hebrew word chugh here translated circle, is also rendered sphere.
The circle of the earth(horizon) is clearly seen from outer space and sometimes during high-altitude airplane travel. Incidentally the book of Job spoke of God as "hanging the earth upon nothing". This is true, for astronomers know that the earth has no visible means of support.There is a long list of such facts found in the scriptures, not to mention the commands by God which hold true to this day. While I do not know the number of outstanding prophesies the scriptures contain I do know listing them(with reasoning) would span a few pages.

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It is not a wish list. They are the characteristics of fictional characters.

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I'm not playing the "if" game. Show evidence that a god is an author.

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The term wishlist was not diminutive, it was more of slang for the list in general. I think your list is flawed on a few angles. This is no discriminating your work, simply stating that it ends up treating text and characteristics with a bit if a wishwash rather than through a standardized process. For example; if the scriptures are positioned at the root origin of fairytales then it is redundant to apply fairytale measures to scrutinize the scriptures.As for God(the author) the scriptures state that it was God Himself who told Moses to write down what He was about to tell him. Now I might be wrong in this, but doesn't this qualify God as the Author of that document?

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Actually you can't say. The medium still exists. Several gods have fallen by the wayside, but they still exist in old writings. Once those are gone and people forget, they won't exist. I'm sure that has happened to many of the Native American gods/spirits from the New England area. Stories were lost.

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True, I did not take into consideration the entire volley of gods and mediums. I guess, this is in part by my own inherent belief that there can be only one God above all things.

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Do we have any books other than the scriptures that predate this? The scriptures seem to parent all other fictional books where supernatural and paralleling universes are concerned. Or do we have something older?

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Predate what?

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Do we have any fairytales which predate the ancient scriptures?PS. I will look into the dating of the ancient scriptures relative to the human timeline. I can't say for certain(based on memory) where exactly the bible stands in view of human existence. However, I think the results are subjective to ones beliefs on the origin and human existence timeline.Edited by pbee, : typo's

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You have to be more specific than "the ancient scriptures". If you mean "the Bible", say so.

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What are you rambling about. I meant the ancient scriptures just as I wrote.

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Of course not. Robinson Crusoe purports to have been written by Robinson Crusoe. Fiction written by a fictional character is still fiction.

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Sure, so was Robinson Crusoe ever slated to be real? Did the story make claims to reality or was it classified as such(fiction)? If the answer is yes, then we have to discount the reality behind Robinson Crusoe in order to classify it as fiction. Otherwise we are making blind assumptions.

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God wrote this forum post.

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This forum post is inerrant.

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Now my first intent seeing this is to evaluate the claim in order to categorize it. Though, I do see your point, I would say, the implication lacks in body and context.For example, where does fictional writing tie in with reality? The onset that the scriptures contain claims for a host of measurable aspects of life and matter places it in a category outside fiction.I think there is a distinguishable divide were we can apply personal considerations on our own views of scriptural data. However, this does not perpetuate the qualifying characteristics of God into a fictional group as a whole. In other words, one can claim he or she doesn't believe in God moresoe than Santa, and even provide reasoning to support his or her position. However this has no effect on the general status or position of God relative to fiction as a whole.It is possible however, to discredit the validity of God's existence based on scriptural content. I find it odd that people avoid this aspect of validation altogether. In a previous post, someone mentioned that Robinson Crusoe was a fictional character who wrote a fictional book. And to this, we would respond by validating the accuracy and tangibility of the book in order to classify *it as fiction.This brings us down to reality. The reality that God and the scriptures can be verified in order to classify it accordingly. Anything else(in my opinion) stands as nothing more than hand waving. So who here is prepared to truly scrutinize the validity of God and His writing? Because as it stands, we are looking at nothing more than convoluted(or backward) attempts to categorize God's existence based on residual data relative to the ancient scriptures or accounts.The only way to properly treat the evidence and validity of God's existence is to gather the evidence and evaluate the results against our own knowledge and data to measure the results. Otherwise we remain limited to personal opinions. Which do not stand for much in light of effective categorization.

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The authors of the Moses stories are the authors.

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The Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 are considered part of a priestly writing written after 722 BCE. (Documentary Hypothesis)

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The part about the second tablets in Exodus 34 were supposedly written by the J writer while the kingdoms were divided. After 922 BCE.

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Thats interesting, because the scriptures which predate your claims state that the ten commandments were penned by Moses and dictated by God. Now I don't want to seem rude, but in a case such as this, wouldn't the older claim take precedence over the younger one? especially if the material is archived?

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If you want to discuss the Documentary Hypothesis itself, there may still be a thread open or you can start one, but don't continue it here unless you can tie it in with the topic.

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It is tempting but time constraints and work projects are against me. However, since you seem inclined to present your own views on matters, perhaps you could take the initiative. In turn, I would gladly share my own research data. Whatever the case, those claims(you posted) are inadmissible since they are much younger than the archaeological evidence archived for study.

The scriptures(Exodus)states that God dictated the words and Moses penned them. It was written in the scrolls dated at 100 BCE. Do you have a source or evidence that predates this claim?

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The date a claim is made has absolutely zero relevance to the claims veracity. A few hundred years ago, people claimed the Earth was flat. Are they somehow correct becasue their claim predated the concept of a (roughly) spherical Earth? Don't be ridiculous. There are many religions that predate Christianity or even Judaism. Are their scriptures more correct than the Jewish texts because they are older?

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A few hundred years ago, people claimed the Earth was flat.

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Interesting thing about this, is that the scriptures(2000 yrs. old), claimed the earth was indeed round.Your attempt at age dismissal is perhaps the most ridiculous move to gain credibility on a topic I have seen to date. I hope your line of work isn't in archeology. - Unless we have evidence which predates an artifact under scrutiny, we have nothing to bring to the table. Scriptural evidence is as good as any archaeological artifact. Asking people to consider opinions on scriptural content which date thousands of years after the fact is completely benign.At this stage, all we are left with is to try and conclude whether the document in question is a viable source of information(credible) or not. Does it fit a fictional profile? or can it be treated as a historical record?Based on my own observations, the scriptures prove to be a historical record and not fiction. As I said before, it does lend itself to scrutiny, but few if any who criticize or dismiss it, ever apply any effort into testing it.

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To you, ancient texts with lots of magic in them should be viewed as historical. Not, as I would think, a mixture of history and myth. So you would perhaps consider Homer's Odyssey (700 BC aprox.) to be true, magic, Gods, and all. Troy and Ithica existed, after all.

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I thought magic was left for the olden days when people didn't understand much. Are you still in that frame of mind? Because the advent of an entity from another realm with capacities which precedes our own does not seem like magic to me. The key to the facet of God and man is to establish whether or not we are dealing with possibilities. As long as we have a logical framework to support the claim, then the claim or event remains plausible. In laman's terms, this means, if it works out, then it's possible.Just as some intellects remain open minded towards alien life, others seem incapable of accepting alien life. Or is it the Godly status which scares them away?Some ancient beliefs don't stand to reason as others do. While I openly admit, I have not looked at all the doctrines we do have outstanding ones. It is easier than most would care to accept to sort through the mix. All in all, the scriptures can be scrutinized and evaluated. It is all to common for flamboyants to come along and pepper the road with loose claims without ever lifting a finger to consider the underlying evidence which surround God's existence. This is a human trait that can be observed it in all areas of life.

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It also claims that the Earth rests on pillars.

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I am not familiar with such words. Perhaps you can point me in the right direction.

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Congratulations on missing the point. I was talking about a claim's validity, which is entirely different from proving whether a document is authentic. In other words, earlier documents will usually (not always) bear greater resemblance to the original document, this is true. But if that document makes claims (assuming the document is 100% genuine in the first place) such as, oh, I don't know...a deity exists and created the Earth in six days, for example, the age of the document has absolutely nothing to do with whether that claim is valid. The scroll you mentioned earlier may indeed have been an authentic, original document. But the claim that it makes (that a deity dictated Exodus to Moses) is entirely unverifiable, in exactly the same way as if I were to say that the invisible pink unicorn dictated this post for me to write.

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Your textual evidence is proof only that belief in a God existed when those document were written. It does not prove that God actually exists. If you believe otherwise, then you must believe in the Hindu pantheon of gods, because they, too, have ancient texts detailing their existence and which claim to be valid.

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A document cannot prove itself. A second document cannot prove the first document's claims. All your scroll proves is that the author of the scroll believed that God exists and dictated Exodus to Moses. It doesn't mean that the author was not wrong.

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Actually I backtracked to my original post and saw that I was confusing your reply with someone else's(apology on that).
I agree, there is no proof of God's existence anywheres in the bible.

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Outright lies. Archaeologists have been searching for evidence of Biblical events since people figured out they could dig up evidence of the past. The results that have been gathered thus far have shown that the Bible is full of mythology rather than fact. There is direct contradictory evidence to Genesis. There is a lack of any supporting evidence for the events of Exodus (surely the Egyptians would have noticed the plagues and the slaying of the firstborn or the mass exodus of the Hebrew slaves and written it down somewhere). To say that they "didn't apply any effort" is ridiculous on its face.

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Well I suppose we could conclude that the history records may not provide us evidence to support all the accounts in the bible. That doesn't mean that it is over either. Look at the dead sea scrolls? it is a good example that things can come up at any time despite what we may feel.Additionally, if we were to setup lists of missing and found evidence to support the scriptural claims, then I wonder how it would take for some people to stand in satisfaction? Continuing on with this thought, we could look at evolution and the available evidence there also. I'm sure you would agree that we do not have all the pieces to the puzzle to satisfy the theory at this time. In fact. the puzzle if very sparse and lacking some major backing. Yet... many people accept it to be a fact.I'm not knocking the theory of evolution but it seemed like a fine example in this case. Point of it is, I think the bible has provided us with a very positive number of verifiable accounts in it's favor.

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Actually the TOE keeps getting confirmed by every new discovery and technology while the Biblical claims keep getting disproved.

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sounds interesting, got a lead?

Isaiah 40:22 reads of One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth. When this text says that God sits above the circle of the earth, this coincides with the fact that the earth is circular(viewed from all directions), but that also makes it globular in form. The Hebrew word "hhug" is shown to mean "circle, sphere". in the Concordance of the Hebrew and Chaldee Scriptures by B. Davidson.