Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage

I gave an example earlier of a child + life threatening/life enhancing surgical operation. And that neither father or mother agree on whether or not to have it done. What does your model of marriage suggest they do? (the only clear answer I have had so far to the question is Crash's - who said they should divorce) Have a read of a post to brenni a couple of posts ago where the analogy of a third person within the marriage was highlighted in the form of a football manager. It has to do less with womans submission to man/man sacrificing to woman and more to do with submission/sacrifice to God. Each Christian will face difficulties obeying what God demands of them but is aided by God in understanding why he does it they way he does it. Even if they weren't it doesn't matter - a believers role is not to question God (even thought we do) but to do as he says as best they can (even though we don't).As I've pointed out to Crash, the model for mans headship is what Christ did for his bride: sacrifice of self in the most total way possible. It ain't easy for us neither...The perfect no-win situation. Schraf, lets not forget what we're talking about here in overview. Everything a Christian does is done in the context of having a relationship with God. Do you understand, even in theory, what that means? Consider all this around us and consider the 'size' of the being that would be necessary to make it all. The bible frequently has mankind expressing sheer, dumbstruck awe at the power and majesty and ways of God. "Peace beyond understanding" "how unsearchable are his ways". Nothing is more vital or rewarding or inexplicable than coming into a relationship with God. Nothing on earth is worth holding onto that it provide satisfaction if it means missing out on what God offers. When Christians, myself included get inclined to reckon otherwise we are being fools. And we know it.You say "good Christian marriage". It seems as if you sneer the words out. But you make the unwarranted presumption that a God blessed marriage is somehow going to be less rewarding for the woman concerned than would Captaining industry. Nothing can improve on life than have God blessing it for you. This might seem unsatisfactory to you but realise it's like me trying to explain to a blind person what the colour red is like. Your not a believer and you have no objective clue as to what it means to know God personally. It seems to me that until you do you are not in a position to weigh up the relative merits of things.When a person gives up own sovereignty and accepts Gods sovereignty over them, they become Christians. That's all becoming a Christian involves. When such a person sees what that results in then they will tend to have less of a problem obeying him in the future. They have tasted what it means to obey God and they like it. God told woman that her childbearing pains would be greatly increased. Do you take him to task over that and consider it unfair that he should allow such a rampantly sexist situation to exist. Or do you accept the pain of childbirth as a natural thing. Part of what it is to be a woman. Do you accept that it is the very difficulty of pregnancy with its sickness and worry and self-sacrifice and at the end of it all...pain - that results in the potential for a mothers bond being uniquely special with her child. Should a man shake his fist at God because he doesn't get this privilege.When a woman submits to Gods order in pregnancy she gets a reward specific to herself. She can chose not to, to take contraception or abort and never have this reward. Her choiceDoes this mean the man is playing second fiddle to his wife? If you answer the conundrum with the sick child then we can talk about equality more maybe. Suffice to say in Gods scheme of things there is no talk of inequality. I've pointed out already that Christs submission to his fathers will didn't mean they aren't both God nor that one is less than the other.When the word 'death' is used in the bible it refers not to that which we commonly understand by the word: heart stops, brain function ceases, rotting away. It inevitably means separation. Spirit departing from body when humans die, separation between man and God due to the fall ("on the day you eat of this tree you will surely die"). If you want to use the worlds definition of submission - which always involves inequality of position then go ahead. But we're not talking about the worlds definition - we're talking the bibles definition. And in the bible one can submit and be equal all at the same time. I really would be interested in your response to the child/operation dilema. I'd like to see your worldly alternative expressed (not that I for a moment consider a woman ever to be a slave or that she is in need of leading at all)This message has been edited by iano, 18-Jan-2006 10:55 AMThis message has been edited by iano, 18-Jan-2006 10:59 AM

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I gave an example earlier of a child + life threatening/life enhancing surgical operation. And that neither father or mother agree on whether or not to have it done. What does your model of marriage suggest they do? (the only clear answer I have had so far to the question is Crash's - who said they should divorce)

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Well, it depends upon the couple. In a real partnership, it is not unusual for one or the other partner to willingly abdicate a difficult decision to the other because they are requested to make it. There is no "default assumption" that it is either of the partners' place to overrule the other's will.That is not to say that situations like the one you mention don't happen. In a equal partnership, they keep negotiating until they come to a decision they can both live with, even though one of the two may be less happy with the decision. It isn't easy, it isn't quick, but it is respectful.That's how grown ups in a committed relationship deal with such decisions.Why, in a "good Christian marriage", is the automatic default that the husband make the call, which always overrules his wife? Every time. That is a clear power imbalance, iano, and you know it. It is easier, and it is quicker, but it isn't respectful of the wife's status as a fully adult human being.You say that power issues have no place in a marriage, but a "good Christian marriage", according to you, is set up with a clear power hierarchy from the start.If the husband always makes the call in cases where the husband and wife disagree, then he has more power in the marriage, even if the wife willingly abdicates her will. That's clear as a bell.

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It has to do less with womans submission to man/man sacrificing to woman and more to do with submission/sacrifice to God. Each Christian will face difficulties obeying what God demands of them but is aided by God in understanding why he does it they way he does it. Even if they weren't it doesn't matter - a believers role is not to question God (even thought we do) but to do as he says as best they can (even though we don't).

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Like I said. It's the perfect no-win situation for girls and women."Yes, go out into the world and lead, become anything at all you want to be, consider yourself completely equal to and sometimes better than any man in any task, but you'd better know your place when you get married!. Should you and your husband disagree, your opinion isn't as important as his in the eyes of God becaue you are only a woman. If you want to have a good Christian marriage and go to heaven, you must assume a submissive position in the hierarchical arrangement of your marriage."

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You say "good Christian marriage". It seems as if you sneer the words out.

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Well, an arrangement in which women are treated as less than adult is pretty insulting to women. It's sneer-worthy.

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But you make the unwarranted presumption that a God blessed marriage is somehow going to be less rewarding for the woman concerned than would Captaining industry.

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Gee, being treated like I am a child who's will, when there is disagreement in the marriage, is always to be considered less important than my husband's, compared to being treated like an adult by other adults. Which one is more attractive to me? Hmmm, let me think.Also, considering that your marriage model results in markedly higher divorce rates than my marriage model, I think we have a clear indication of which type of marriage is more satisfying for women.

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Nothing can improve on life than have God blessing it for you.

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Since when is being treated like a child by another adult that one is supposed to be in a romantic relationship with one of God's "blessings"?I mean, a man who wants a submissive wife is just wanting a maleable, controllable child in a woman's body. That's sick.

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This might seem unsatisfactory to you but realise it's like me trying to explain to a blind person what the colour red is like. Your not a believer and you have no objective clue as to what it means to know God personally. It seems to me that until you do you are not in a position to weigh up the relative merits of things.

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Hey, it's your lot who gets divorced so much, not my group. If I want tips on having a successful marriage, I don't think I'm going to follow the model that leads to more divorce. That would be dumb.

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Do you accept that it is the very difficulty of pregnancy with its sickness and worry and self-sacrifice and at the end of it all...pain - that results in the potential for a mothers bond being uniquely special with her child. Should a man shake his fist at God because he doesn't get this privilege.

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Yeah, and I hear men complaining all the time how they can't get pregnant and give birth.You are reaching here, iano.

yes but your post didn't answer my question and you're running in circles. you're using the same word submit in the relationship with god. so i'm to treat my husband like a god? what is this second definition you claim exists for submit?

maybe that's part of why men used to marry children instead of actual adult women. he's 30, she's 13... who do you think makes the decisions? maybe that's what he means by good christian marriage. the kind jesus' parents had.

While there were some very practical reasons for that practice, one that is seldom mentioned may be that women mature so much faster than men. To have a pair of reletively equal maturity it may be necessary for the man to be decades older than the woman.But the most common reason was that until my mother's generation, the number one cause of death among women was childbirth. A society where large families are needed and childbirth so dangerous will lead to younger brides and more second, third and even fourth marriages.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Was Christ (for the purposes of discussion) God? Did Christ submit his will to the will of the father? Was Christ less equal to God? I suggest the answers are Yes/Yes/No respectively.In so far as it is possible to get ones head around the idea of three persons /one God it can be seen that it is possible to submit to someone from own free choice and yet be equal with them. God submitting to God. How can it be? Except that it was. A recipe for disaster for both of you I would imagine.God (Christ) submitted to God (Father) yet both are equal. A person submitting themselves to a person yet both people remaining equal. A woman who submits to her husband may take the stance "I do so, not because I am less than him, or that he is smarter than me, but because God says that that is the role for me - and I trust and submit to his (Gods) authority on this as in other things. I trust that if I do as God says and he does as God says then we will be obeying God - which is the most important thing to me (and him)".Its not about what the individual wants - its about what God wants. A Christians duty ends ultimately at submitting to Gods authority. It's not like this has to be an insurmountable burden - the Christian is one simply because they have already decided to take this step - submitting to GodLike it makes no sense to question Gods wisdom - even if we quite frequently do. We assume he knows what he is doing and has good reasons for it. I can understand (to a necessarily)limited extent the difficulties a woman may have with this. The thought of submitting to God, who is patently above her is one thing. The thought of submitting to her husband who is patently not above her is another thing. But she is only submitting to her husbands will by proxy. In reality it is God will she submits to.This message has been edited by iano, 18-Jan-2006 04:08 PM

yes i understand that. that's crap. maybe women mature faster than men. but not like that. it's really only a couple years difference and it's much more physical than emotional. you do know why college guys date high school girls right? because they put out more easily because they're not mature enough to know that the guys are lying to them.'nough said.

As only one example of the male species, I can testify that was not the case as I experienced it. One day, in another thread perhaps, I will recount the tales of my enlightenment on the emotional maturity of younger women.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

you're mistaking the word proxy. you mean she's submitting to god by proxy of submitting to her husband. and you're still talking in circles. you keep changing your argument. first it's woman submits to man, man submits to go; then it's woman submits to god and by proxy submits to man? what?look. the bible is an old book. it reflects old ideas. back then women were property. thus they submitted their will to their husbands, their lords, who then submitted to god. trying to justify this in the common world is almost impossible. it's fine to say they are to love and serve each other, but the idea of submission is old hat and will never fly. i've seen women who submit... they're trophies. they look like the heads of deer mounted on the wall. it's horrid. but i've also seen christians who serve their spouses with their best gifts. i know a man who is the most disorganized, ill-fated individual ever. his wife is a machine. she's amazing. she manages everything and he brings home a decent wage. she works too, mind you. i think they make about the same (corrected for unequal pay). they both work, she manages everything. why? because he kind of acts like a rebellious teenager. he changes jobs when he gets tired of what he's doing. he goes from engineer to photographer to real estate to engineer... and she makes everything work out. is he the head? doubtful. does she rule him? haha no. no one could. do they love and serve each other? absolutely. he's an elder at the church i grew up in. they seem to have no problem justifying their relationship.

And there is nothing at all to prevent a Christian couple taking this tack. It is the preferred thing to do. A man who attempts to latch onto some default position of authority after a cursory listening to his wifes view can hardly be living up to the model of sacrificing himself for his wife. Is he? His role is to consider what is best for the unit and to put his personal desire last - not first.A couple wherein the former position was utilised would soon descend into mono: the husband calling the shots, the wifes input stilted and her resentment building. It is meant to be stereo. The two becoming one flesh and producing a beautiful, full sound Firstly, the instances where a call needs to be made should be rare - if ever - if the unit is functioning correctly. Negotiation, consideration, advice seeking, prayer - all lie before the overruling your seem to think is the first port of call for a good Christian marriage. The model is the father, son, spirit working in harmony - never working against each other. Each accepting and fulfilling the role that is inherent in them. We are made in his image and likeness thus there are inherent, equal roles for us too. Its not about balance of power in the Godhead. If it is about balance of power in marriage then the model isn't being followed correctly.A husband who seeks to overrule without exhausting these healthy, enabling approaches is not sacrificing - and the woman is always free not to take the "lead" of a man who she considers doesn't warrant "following". If the husband is failing in his role then he will have to face the consequences of that - which may include his wife refusing to take his lead. Forget not who is at the ultimate helm here.If it comes down to a position where the avenues have been followed and a happy medium can't be found - in this instance operate or don't - there being no half operation available - and a decision must be made. Then the "authority" rests with the husband on the basis that God has said so. Authority (from God not self) to make head of family decisions. The woman has a God given power in terms of bond of relationship with her children. She has an influence over her children, all other things considered, that the man doesn't have. She can, all other things considered, shape them and mould them in a way that is not open to the man. This may seem to you to be a secondary thing but it is hardly irrelevant. Whateverm, it is as it has been given. Your opinion is as important as his in Gods eyes. You are forgetting a central thing Schraf. God sets things up but doesn't simply stand back and watch the fun. This is simply the start of things, the laying of a foundation in which GOD WORKS HIS WILL. He is the one doing the directing, whose plan is being worked out. By yielding to HIM, both in the relationship are in effect opening the door to God working to weld them together to be one. Something that can never happen to a full extent with your model, where the nearest you can get in the case of inequanimity.... is compromise. A compromise, whilst maintaining 'equality' is never the optimal solution (w.r.t. implementing the optimal solution eg: operate/don't operate).
Maintaining 'equality' is not Gods purpose, it can never be taken away in order for it to require maintenance. Gods purpose is unity. Not possible when the two remain separate individuals A Christian doesn't fail to get to heaven by disobeying God in any way: marriage or otherwise What is the hierarchy (meaning, as you insist on using it here, greater/more powerful/dominant/more important etc, in the Godhead Schraf? I suggest you won't find that these apply to the model we have for a 'good Christian marriage' Insisting that submit means as the world means it doesn't change that God doesn't mean it that way You are no doubt referring to survyes where a Christian is defined by the fact that folk answer "Christian" when asked what belief system they have. And before you can say "saved by faith" the pollsters are off and running pulling "Christians in marriage collapse epidemic" headlines out of their statisical hatsI suspect the reason that some Christian marriages fail is precisely because they, as you, misunderstand head/submit and apply the same dominant/submissive traits to it as you seem bent on Could we take it as an example of a God given order which provides women with unique ability in a vital area (all other things considered) that a man doesn't have nor can cause to result in himself

The man sacrifices himself for his family. This is submitting to God. A wife submits to her husband. This is submitting to God. Submitting to God is the prime thing. Their views, though not unimportant in a practical sense are irrelevant D'ya ever sprain your ankle? You can move around, with the strong ankle supporting and favoring the weak one. But supple smooth movement over the ground it is not. If this guy got more organized. If he stopped moving jobs and stuck it so as to get some promotion, then he'd bring in some more bread and his wife would have less running around to do and they could afford to go on a nice vacation occassionally. In other words, him assuming responsibility and sacrificing his desires would result in improvement for his familyI'm not knocking him, who am I to knock - but in not living up to his responsibilites in this area he is not honouring God. God doesn't change. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. A wife is the property of her husband as is the husband the property of his wife.When folk treated woman like chattel in those days they weren't living according to Gods model - they were living according to the worlds model that so many try to live by today: unequal pay, unequal promotional opportunity, women as sex objects, the beauty industry etc. Its more sophisticated but not all that different

I find these odd statements. What makes you think god wasn't cool with chattel? I mean, take a look at the OT. It's nothing but how to treat women as propertie.

Don't think, don't question just DO AS I TELL YOU. Oh, if you have a question it's because God's Wisdom is greater than yours and God told me to tell you because you aren't good enough to understand yourself. In other words I KNOW MORE THAN YOU and you are equal to me if it makes you feel better, but I'm in charge and you DO as YOU are TOLD!Excuse while I vomit. I'm so sick of this stupid authoritarianism that people like you blindly swallow and then repeat ad nauseum. Yes, the society of the Dark Ages lives, Praise the Lord I do what the priests tell me, believe what they tell to me believe!Rome took Christianity and built an even more controlling state then they had before and if you didn't obey in this life you got tortured and told you would be tortured by God for eternity to boot. All this is STUPID and DISGUSTING. But over a thousand years of intense social conditioning have left some many people mentally vulnerable to this.Wake up. Look around. Get educated. Think! The church lied in order to impose authority. And now people like you just blindly accept this nonsense in order to feel secure.lfen

An offer which she would, I imagine, refuse. And there is not the slightest thing the man could do about it. How powerful is that eh? Er...okay... Feeling better now? I think your confusing God with people who claim to represent God I spent 38 years of my life awake. I got as educated about the world as I had the stomach for. Think I'll give a return visit a miss...

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An offer which she would, I imagine, refuse. And there is not the slightest thing the man could do about it. How powerful is that eh?

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Would she have refused 1000 years ago? What do you suppose would have happened to her if she had back then? How much power did she have? Why didn't she have that power?What about 500 years ago?250 years ago?100 years ago?50 years ago?40 years ago?As women have slowly hacked their way out of the jumgle of male oppression over the last several millenia, it has NOT been with the support of the Christian religion in very large part.It has been IN SPITE of Christianity and other Abrahamic religions that women are considered fully human in modern society, iano. Christian leaders have nearly always decried any progress that gave power or equal status to women of even the most basic sort as being sinful, or likely to lead to sin and the destruction of Christian society.It still seeks to keep women in their lower status place in many respects, as you are promoting yourself, in this thread.It is the greater social women's rights movement that has forced Christianity to change, not the other way around.You are still about 100 years behind the times with all of this "submission" nonsense, but that is just par for the course.