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Author Topic:   What are the odds of God existing?
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 256 of 304 (308744)
05-03-2006 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by New Cat's Eye
05-03-2006 10:02 AM


Re: adding the third option
According to the OP's logic, wouldn't that lower the odds of god existing to 33.33%?
I'm not so sure. It might be set at 25%.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-03-2006 10:02 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-03-2006 11:47 AM robinrohan has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 257 of 304 (308747)
05-03-2006 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by New Cat's Eye
05-03-2006 10:09 AM


Re: Defining the only two options
So...does God sleep?
Well, Genesis stated that God rested. Would that count?
In some schools of Hinduism God is thought to sleep. This entire Universe is his dream and then he wakes up! Then when he sleeps again he dreams another universe.
lfen

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 Message 246 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-03-2006 10:09 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 258 of 304 (308748)
05-03-2006 11:38 AM


Why 0.5 ?
Given that you could frame the problem in terms of a choice between two options that are exhaustive and mutually exclusice, why would that make the probability 0.5 ?
Any proposition could be phrased in such a way, yet we know that many do not haver a probability of 0.5. So, if we have no addiitonal information that would let us better estimate the probabilities, would it not be better to say that we have insufficient infomation to assign a probability with any degree of reliability ?
And if you really do believe that you can reliably assign probabilites based purely on the way that the problem is framed, how do you deal with the fact that it is possible to produce contradictory results just by framing the problem in a different way ?

Replies to this message:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 259 of 304 (308750)
05-03-2006 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by robinrohan
05-03-2006 10:52 AM


Re: ughh
So Robin are you limiting yourself to a dualistic philosophy?
You are assuming there are two fundamental properties of the universe: insentient stuff and sentience?
Are you then a priori excluding monism or non duality from even being considered?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 10:52 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 12:14 PM lfen has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 260 of 304 (308751)
05-03-2006 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by robinrohan
05-03-2006 11:28 AM


Re: uhhHH ^.^
well that was a disappointing reply

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 Message 254 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 11:28 AM robinrohan has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 261 of 304 (308752)
05-03-2006 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by robinrohan
05-03-2006 11:32 AM


Re: adding the third option
whatever

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 11:32 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 12:10 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 262 of 304 (308761)
05-03-2006 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by PaulK
05-03-2006 11:38 AM


Re: Why 0.5 ?
would it not be better to say that we have insufficient infomation to assign a probability with any degree of reliability ?
OK, I'll go for that. I just meant there was nothing--no available evidence if we don't consider other factors such as the nature of that creation--to lead us to choose either option.

This message is a reply to:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 263 of 304 (308763)
05-03-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by New Cat's Eye
05-03-2006 11:47 AM


Re: adding the third option
whatever
1. eternal god created the universe
2. non-eternal God, arising from nothing, created the universe.
3. the universe has always existed.
4. the universe came from nothing.
So if we allow the idea that something can come from nothing, we seem to have 4 choices. Maybe there's more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-03-2006 11:47 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-03-2006 12:22 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 271 by iano, posted 05-03-2006 2:59 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 264 of 304 (308766)
05-03-2006 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by lfen
05-03-2006 11:40 AM


Re: ughh
So Robin are you limiting yourself to a dualistic philosophy?
You are assuming there are two fundamental properties of the universe: insentient stuff and sentience?
I wasn't thinking in terms of two types of realities. But if we wish to say that consciousness includes incorporeality of mind, then we have two types.
(no God and evolution would exclude this possibility, I think. I don't see how the non-physical can come from the physical).
Are you then a priori excluding monism or non duality from even being considered?
There's two possible monisms: everything's mental or everything's physical. Which did you have in mind?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by lfen, posted 05-03-2006 11:40 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 265 of 304 (308769)
05-03-2006 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by robinrohan
05-03-2006 12:10 PM


Re: adding the third option
1. eternal god created the universe
2. non-eternal God, arising from nothing, created the universe.
3. the universe has always existed.
4. the universe came from nothing.
So if we allow the idea that something can come from nothing, we seem to have 4 choices. Maybe there's more.
I think you could compound 2 and 4 and expand 1, or just leave it like that.
Expand 1?
An eternal god could create either an eternal or non-eternal universe.
I think an eternal god could create an eternal universe. Time is a dimension of our universe, that would be created when the universe is created, so we could say that the universe existed for all time, or is eternal, although it was created by a god. Or, you could have a god chillin out in some time and then he creates the universe while time already exists. This universe would not be eternal and it would be created by a god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 12:10 PM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 266 of 304 (308777)
05-03-2006 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by cavediver
05-03-2006 11:21 AM


Re: Defining the only two options
Surely we are part of Nature? Via our conciousness, Nature is one total being. If not, what do you define as the delimiter of our individual conciousnesses? Our physical bodies?
One speaks of discreet entities even though something can be seen as part of something else. My stomach is a discreet entity, but it also a part of me. But the point is to find a distinguishing characteristic of God that would distinguish God from nature. So the question is whether the characteristic of consciousness is arbitrary or not. Might we pick some other quality such as twitchiness or redness? I don't think so, but I'm not sure how to express the idea yet.
As for as those ideas about God being "outside of our particular time"--this makes no sense to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by cavediver, posted 05-03-2006 11:21 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by cavediver, posted 05-03-2006 1:48 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 270 by lfen, posted 05-03-2006 2:35 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 274 by iano, posted 05-03-2006 4:10 PM robinrohan has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 267 of 304 (308790)
05-03-2006 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by robinrohan
05-03-2006 12:49 PM


Re: Defining the only two options
As for as those ideas about God being "outside of our particular time"--this makes no sense to me.
Accoring to conventional 20th/21st century physics (GR) time is just as much a contained (created) part of the universe as anything else. If God is not outside our time, then he is part of our universe and hence not God at all...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 12:49 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 2:09 PM cavediver has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 268 of 304 (308794)
05-03-2006 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by cavediver
05-03-2006 1:48 PM


Re: Defining the only two options
Accoring to conventional 20th/21st century physics (GR) time is just as much a contained (created) part of the universe as anything else. If God is not outside our time, then he is part of our universe and hence not God at all...
It seems to me a contradiction to say that something can be both finite in time and also eternal.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 269 of 304 (308797)
05-03-2006 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by robinrohan
05-03-2006 12:14 PM


Re: ughh
There's two possible monisms: everything's mental or everything's physical. Which did you have in mind?
hmmmm, oddly enough in a way it doesn't matter does it?
I don't see how the non-physical can come from the physical).
Neither do I.
But there is another possiblity and that is that what we call "mental" or "awareness" is a property of what we call "matter/energy" that we so far haven't found a way to measure. Something like for a long time lightening seemed divine because no one knew that matter/energy included electromagnetic properties.
Or it could be that what we call mental includes the phenomena that we experience and describe as matter/energy.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 12:14 PM robinrohan has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 270 of 304 (308802)
05-03-2006 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by robinrohan
05-03-2006 12:49 PM


Re: Defining the only two options
My stomach is a discreet entity, but it also a part of me.
How do you determine discreet? It's possible to determine boundaries and yet they are regions not totally discreet.
A concept can be discreet such as the concept of the number 1, or the concept of a prime number, or the pi. But when we look at phenomena do we ever find something discreet? Examples please. I'll use stomach if you like but I don't know how you'll define and determine it's discreetness. I just don't see it.
Some 25 years ago, Arthur Koestler proposed the word "holon" [Koestler]. It is a combination from the Greek holos = whole, with the suffix on which, as in proton or neutron, suggests a particle or part.
Two observations impelled Koestler to propose the word holon. The first comes from Herbert Simon, a Nobel prize winner, and is based on his 'parable of the two watchmakers' , [Simon] . From this parable, Simon concludes that complex systems will evolve from simple systems much more rapidly if there are stable intermediate forms than if there are not; the resulting complex systems in the former case will be hierarchic.
The second observation, made by Koestler while analysing hierarchies and stable intermediate forms in living organisms and social organisation, is thatalthough it is easy to identify sub-wholes or parts'wholes' and 'parts' in an absolute sense do not exist anywhere. This made Koestler propose the word holon to describe the hybrid nature of sub- wholes/parts in real-life systems; holons simultaneously are self-contained wholes to their subordinated parts, and dependent parts when seen from the inverse direction.
Koestler also establishes the link between holons and the watchmakers' parable from professor Simon. He points out that the sub-wholes/holons are autonomous self-reliant units, which have a degree of independence and handle contingencies without asking higher authorities for instructions. Simultaneously, holons are subject to control from (multiple) higher authorities. The first property ensures that holons are stable forms, which survive disturbances. The latter property signifies that they are intermediate forms, which provide the proper functionality for the bigger whole.
Finally, Koestler defines a holarchy as a hierarchy of self-regulating holons which function (a) as autonomous wholes in supra-ordination to their parts, (b) as dependent parts in sub- ordination to controls on higher levels, (c) in co-ordination with their local environment
Departement Werktuigkunde - KU Leuven — Departement Werktuigkunde (WTK)
Koestler and later Wilber developed the notion of nested hierachies to model the way the universe is a whole of interdependent parts that can function as wholes which in turn have parts which ... well, and so on and so forth.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 12:49 PM robinrohan has not replied

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