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Author Topic:   What are the odds of God existing?
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 271 of 304 (308805)
05-03-2006 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by robinrohan
05-03-2006 12:10 PM


Ouch..that hurt!
Maybe there's more
Maybe there is less. There is no universe, there is no us. If something can come from nothing then there can also be nothing. And this is it. We cannot prove anythings existance without using things which we are trying to prove exist as moorings. It seems somewhat circular to me. As does nothing proving it is nothing - but then again we have nothing to say nothing is actually something attempting to prove anything
You pays your money...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 12:10 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 3:07 PM iano has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 272 of 304 (308806)
05-03-2006 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by iano
05-03-2006 2:59 PM


Re: Ouch..that hurt!
Maybe there is less. There is no universe, there is no us. If something can come from nothing then there can also be nothing. And this is it. We cannot prove anythings existance without using things which we are trying to prove exist as moorings. It seems somewhat circular to me. As does nothing proving it is nothing - but then again we have nothing to say nothing is actually something attempting to prove anything
Once unreason enters the picture, "anything's possible."

God does not "exist."---Paul Tillich, Christian theologian

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by iano, posted 05-03-2006 2:59 PM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Chiroptera, posted 05-03-2006 3:44 PM robinrohan has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 273 of 304 (308812)
05-03-2006 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by robinrohan
05-03-2006 3:07 PM


Re: Ouch..that hurt!
quote:
Once unreason enters the picture, "anything's possible."
"Unreason" is not simply whatever you decide you don't want to deal with.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 3:07 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 4:26 PM Chiroptera has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 274 of 304 (308817)
05-03-2006 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by robinrohan
05-03-2006 12:49 PM


Saving Private Rohan
As for as those ideas about God being "outside of our particular time"--this makes no sense to me.
See if this helps.
Omnivorous comes in from a long day, slides a disc into his dvd player, pours himself a generous slug from that 30 year old whiskey he's finally permitted himself - and flops down on the couch with a sigh: "How much longer Lord (if you exist)"
Omni presses PLAY.
He finds himself moved by the opening sequence of the movie. Its "Saving Private Ryan". Given his Vietnam vet past, he finds the opening sequence a little heavy going and fast forwards past it until he gets to the story proper. There is no succour there as the film continues to contrast the depravity of battle with the sheer humnaity of man. Scenes from Omnis own experience flash unbidden before his eyes. His fingers unconsciously use all their former war experience and crawl on their bellies towards the FAST FORWARD button..
"KNOCK KNOCK"... on the door. "Dang! Those pesky trick or treaters" he mumbles to himself - partly in relief for the (unbeknownst to him God-supplied) unexpected break, partly in reaction to the twinge-of-pain his miraculously repaired colon gives him on rising from the couch in reminder as to what he knows (yet somehow still denies) went on in that fevered hospital time. He presses PAUSE
Finding himself ill-equipped to debate the thread topic "Satanic Origins of Hallo-ween" with the fresh faced youngsters he encounters, he relents and pops a couple of sweets into their trustingly proffered bags - wondering (as Iano does) why it is that nobody seems to give fruit and nuts anymore but prefer to dole out all manner of suger-delivery-devices... and money... and porn.
Compelled in to pressing PLAY again, Omni stands at the drinks counter treating himself to a small refill. The tv images translate in his brain so as to initiate a burning in his throat, lubricated remotely by the gentle overflow from his eyes - as he surveys the sheer, inexplicable heroism portrayed in the Alamo battle. Entering the final sequence he glances around and stands, the now-old soldier, to attention - and choruses the protagonists salute to the men with whom he fought... and in may ways... died.
Omni is God. He inhabits his realm. You? Your Private Rohan. Your life is played out one frame at a time, in one movie, the past known to you, the future not. Omni can fast forward, stop, pause, play his viewing of your life before you even live it. He can chose to see any and every scene according to his will. Your conception as a story, your birth, your marriage, your death. Your destination
And if Omni was Stephen Spielberg, he would be an even better model of God. For he could allow anything at all to happen to Private Rohan. Yet nowhere in the final cut does Private Rohan make anything but his own choices.
It ain't perfect Private...but its the model I use whenever the mood takes me. And its reassuring to know, even if "through a glass darkly" what the ending will be before I get there. Real reassuring.
And you don't even have to "earn this"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 12:49 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 4:27 PM iano has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 275 of 304 (308822)
05-03-2006 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Chiroptera
05-03-2006 3:44 PM


Re: Ouch..that hurt!
"Unreason" is not simply whatever you decide you don't want to deal with.
Yeah, well, maybe so. I know one thing. This sci-fi babble gives me a headache.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Chiroptera, posted 05-03-2006 3:44 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Chiroptera, posted 05-03-2006 4:33 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 279 by iano, posted 05-03-2006 4:35 PM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 276 of 304 (308823)
05-03-2006 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by iano
05-03-2006 4:10 PM


Re: Saving Private Rohan
I liked that, iano. I'm sure Omnivorous will like it too.
I get the picture. But Cavediver, I think, was talking about something else.
Very creative.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 05-03-2006 03:28 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by iano, posted 05-03-2006 4:10 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by iano, posted 05-03-2006 4:32 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 293 by cavediver, posted 05-03-2006 7:13 PM robinrohan has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 277 of 304 (308827)
05-03-2006 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by robinrohan
05-03-2006 4:27 PM


Re: Saving Private Rohan
I get the picture
There is bugger all to be taken from this film - other than perhaps to invoke its title:
Mission Accomplished

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 4:27 PM robinrohan has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 278 of 304 (308828)
05-03-2006 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by robinrohan
05-03-2006 4:26 PM


Re: Ouch..that hurt!
Just because you "get a head ache" doesn't make something "sci-fi babble".

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 4:26 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 4:43 PM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 281 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 5:00 PM Chiroptera has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 279 of 304 (308831)
05-03-2006 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by robinrohan
05-03-2006 4:26 PM


Re: Ouch..that hurt!
It would be interesting to see if unreason could come up with anything that couldn't be slotted into an existing category. If not then you could insert this one on the basis of ununderstood stand-alone.
I felt something go 'POP' in my head as I wrote it - if thats any consolation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 4:26 PM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 280 of 304 (308834)
05-03-2006 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Chiroptera
05-03-2006 4:33 PM


Re: Ouch..that hurt!
Just because you "get a head ache" doesn't make something "sci-fi babble".
There might be a connection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Chiroptera, posted 05-03-2006 4:33 PM Chiroptera has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 281 of 304 (308839)
05-03-2006 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Chiroptera
05-03-2006 4:33 PM


Re: Ouch..that hurt!
I think all science can tell us is that the "universe is," as Mr. Jack, I think, said. But then we knew that already. What we want to know is how, and also, of course, why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Chiroptera, posted 05-03-2006 4:33 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by iano, posted 05-03-2006 5:22 PM robinrohan has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 282 of 304 (308843)
05-03-2006 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by robinrohan
05-03-2006 5:00 PM


Re: Ouch..that hurt!
what on earth has science to do with it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 5:00 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 5:32 PM iano has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 283 of 304 (308845)
05-03-2006 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by iano
05-03-2006 5:22 PM


Re: Ouch..that hurt!
Science says--not sure how certain it is--that time and space were created at the Big Bang. So this means there was no time "before" the BB, i.e., there was no before. Nothing existed "before" the Big Bang.
I suppose out of this--with maybe a dash of Quantum Mechanics, which of course we are all very conversant in--comes the strange idea that something can come from nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by iano, posted 05-03-2006 5:22 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by iano, posted 05-03-2006 6:17 PM robinrohan has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 284 of 304 (308858)
05-03-2006 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by robinrohan
05-03-2006 5:32 PM


Re: Ouch..that hurt!
Science says--not sure how certain it is
Neither is it - per definition
One of your possibles is "God says"
The uncertainty of what he says lies more within you than him
I suppose out of this--with maybe a dash of Quantum Mechanics, which of course we are all very conversant in--comes the strange idea that something can come from nothing.
If QM says that then I would start to question QM - for obvious (it refutes itself) reasons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by robinrohan, posted 05-03-2006 5:32 PM robinrohan has not replied

DrFrost
Inactive Member


Message 285 of 304 (308869)
05-03-2006 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Chiroptera
04-28-2006 6:48 PM


Re: Pretzel
quote:
We have been discussing your premise that "everything that hasn't existed for eternity must have a cause". Namely, we have been discussing that this is not an obvious assumption to make. It is perfectly reasonable and logical to recognize the possibility that there is something (such as the universe) that has not existed for all eternity but yet had no cause.
That's a pretty good premise. Science itself is all about understanding cause and effect. I'm trying to think of an example of an action which occurred with absolutely no cause but I'm coming up short. If you are proposing that this is possible (or even likely) then perhaps you should provide an example. At the very least I would find such an example interesting.
(EDIT: I should be more specific here and ask for a macro as opposed to micro example. I'd like to leave out quantum mechanics, for example. While the HUP allows for some strange behavior at small scales, the law of conservation of energy keeps these fluxuations from having any effect at a macro level. Also, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see HUP go through some major alterations. The fact that lasers contradict HUP seems pretty good evidence to me that it's fundamentally flawed. A good reference for this would be a recent book by Carver Mead: Collective Electrodynamics: Quantum Foundations of Electromagnetism. I highly recommend it if you're interested in a quantum description of electromagnetism.)
As far as the OP I found the question very interesting and I believe I can answer it with great certainty! The probability that God exists is either 0 or 1. There, I've ruled out an infinite number of values and reduced the field of choices down to two. I believe I've done my share of the work and I'll leave it to others to furhter narrow down the field.
This message has been edited by DrFrost, 05-03-2006 06:54 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Chiroptera, posted 04-28-2006 6:48 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by iano, posted 05-03-2006 6:52 PM DrFrost has not replied
 Message 288 by Chiroptera, posted 05-03-2006 7:04 PM DrFrost has not replied

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