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Author
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Topic: Please give me so-called "proof" of Jesus or God.
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
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Message 241 of 320 (135240)
08-19-2004 12:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 60 by almeyda
06-30-2004 6:53 AM
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You are, of course, assuming there were eye witnesses. If it was a story, why then, of course, there would not be eye witnesses. I am sure that if any dead people started walking around Jerusalum at the time of someone's execution, it would be noted in more places on than the gospels.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 60 by almeyda, posted 06-30-2004 6:53 AM | | almeyda has not replied |
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
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Message 242 of 320 (135242)
08-19-2004 12:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 63 by almeyda
06-30-2004 7:11 AM
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NOT THIS strawman again. People die for the strangest beliefs. I mean, you had group of people kill themselves because they thought they were going on a UFO behind hale bop. You got a group of 19 idiots using planes as missiles.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by almeyda, posted 06-30-2004 7:11 AM | | almeyda has not replied |
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
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Message 243 of 320 (135244)
08-19-2004 12:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 66 by almeyda
06-30-2004 7:34 AM
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1) So what?? If someone claims to be god doesn't mean it is true. If a set of writings proclaims a fictional person said they were god, doesn't make that fictional person in existance either. 2) There is no place in the new testamant that words attributed to Jesus (In context) that said he was God. S
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 66 by almeyda, posted 06-30-2004 7:34 AM | | almeyda has not replied |
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
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Message 244 of 320 (135245)
08-19-2004 12:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 75 by Hangdawg13
06-30-2004 6:41 PM
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You are, of course, asssuming that it was matthew, John and Luke that wrote it. However, there is no evidence that the person to whom the work is attributed actually wrote those texts.. and Luke has made it quite clear that He/(she??) was writing from other works, and was not an eye witness..
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 75 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-30-2004 6:41 PM | | Hangdawg13 has not replied |
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
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Message 245 of 320 (135247)
08-19-2004 12:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 77 by Zachariah
07-01-2004 1:55 AM
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Re: a little bit of interesting news Lam
The Ossurary of James has been proven to be a modern fake. Not only was the patenia cut through, but when they went to arrest the 'owner' of it (he had another 'maginficent' find that also was a forgery) , they even discovered stencils for forgery work in his apartmetn.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by Zachariah, posted 07-01-2004 1:55 AM | | Zachariah has not replied |
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
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Message 246 of 320 (135248)
08-19-2004 12:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 79 by custard
07-01-2004 3:17 AM
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The problem with that arabic translaton is that it is fromt he 10th century, a full 600 years after the first mention of the one that is considered a forgery. It is from a strongly muslim country, that might not of wanted the overtly Christian meaning to be there.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by custard, posted 07-01-2004 3:17 AM | | custard has not replied |
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
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Message 247 of 320 (135249)
08-19-2004 12:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 84 by riVeRraT
07-01-2004 6:53 PM
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Re: a little bit of interesting news Lam
Let see.. we want to know if the Bible is just a bunch of stories, or has some truth to it. So, you quote from the bible. That is rather circular, you know.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 84 by riVeRraT, posted 07-01-2004 6:53 PM | | riVeRraT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 266 by riVeRraT, posted 08-19-2004 11:00 PM | | ramoss has not replied |
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
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Message 248 of 320 (135251)
08-19-2004 12:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 99 by bambooguy
07-02-2004 11:41 PM
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Re: NT scholars don't debate this topic anymore.
Except for the Gospels, and the apparent forgery in Josephus, could you ponit me to a FIRST century docuement about Jesus??
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 99 by bambooguy, posted 07-02-2004 11:41 PM | | bambooguy has not replied |
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
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Message 249 of 320 (135252)
08-19-2004 12:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 104 by riVeRraT
07-03-2004 10:35 AM
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Re: a little bit of interesting news Lam
And the objective evidence you have of this is??
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 104 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2004 10:35 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 267 by riVeRraT, posted 08-19-2004 11:02 PM | | ramoss has not replied |
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
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Message 250 of 320 (135257)
08-19-2004 1:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 112 by sfs
07-03-2004 11:13 PM
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Re: NT scholars don't debate this topic anymore.
Well, you know that calling him part of the 'crack pot' community, particularly when his evidence is so highly docuemented, and verifiable. What you are doing is the logical fallacy known as 'ad homenin'. Earl Doghtery has a lot of educational credentials, and has clearly docuemented things. You might not agree with his conclusions, but he docuemented his items very well.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 112 by sfs, posted 07-03-2004 11:13 PM | | sfs has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 288 by sfs, posted 09-01-2004 12:49 PM | | ramoss has not replied |
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
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Message 251 of 320 (135260)
08-19-2004 1:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 119 by almeyda
07-04-2004 7:09 AM
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On the contrary. One one of them (Joesphus), wrote in teh first century (and at that , 60 years after the alledged incident). The passage people are concerned about apparently is a forgery. The rest probably got their information FROm the christians..
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 119 by almeyda, posted 07-04-2004 7:09 AM | | almeyda has not replied |
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
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Message 252 of 320 (135267)
08-19-2004 1:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 132 by sfs
07-05-2004 11:52 AM
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However, even if it is not, you still have to remember 1) Joesphus was writing 60 years after the alledged events 2) The phrasology of the statement about james is EXACTLY the same as two of the gospels. The source, if Josephus wrote it or not, seems to have been the gospels. It is likely, due to the fact it is exactly the same as the christian text when refering to james, that it was a copier's gloss.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 132 by sfs, posted 07-05-2004 11:52 AM | | sfs has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 289 by sfs, posted 09-01-2004 1:00 PM | | ramoss has replied |
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
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The problem with that is that anybody going through a belief change can have a big difference in their life. I can point to the changes of people converting to Islam, to Judaism, and losing all 'faith' in religion all togather, and becoming atheists as people whose change in belief made a sigifnigent change for them to the better.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 135 by Mike_King, posted 07-05-2004 6:30 PM | | Mike_King has not replied |
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
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Message 254 of 320 (135270)
08-19-2004 1:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 152 by riVeRraT
07-07-2004 7:35 AM
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Re: a little bit of interesting news Lam
Well, I will tell you what. Provid evidence that there is a god, and all these books about them are somethign MORE that just stories with a bit of mythical history mixed in, and I will seek god. Personal testimonies, logical fallacies, and ciruclar reasonings won't cut it. Think you can do that?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 152 by riVeRraT, posted 07-07-2004 7:35 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 268 by riVeRraT, posted 08-19-2004 11:04 PM | | ramoss has not replied |
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General Nazort
Inactive Member
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Message 255 of 320 (135278)
08-19-2004 2:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 238 by ramoss
08-19-2004 12:28 PM
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Re: There isn't any proof Jesus ever existedI
Well, Jesus didn't actually fullfilly the prophecies needed for being the Jewish Messiah, you know.
And, of course, when ti comes to the 'prophecies' that are claimed by gospels, anybody can write someone to make it appear to fullfill prophecies, particularly when they have a book that that claim predicts it, and quote mine to make him appear to fullfill them. Matthew in particular did this, since many of the 'prophecies' are mistranslations,
items taken out of context and a miss understanding of the Jewish scripture. Matthew didn't even get the geography of the region correct in some places. Lets see you back this up, ramoss. Explain how Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecies, show examples of prophecies that are "mistranslations," and how Matthew didn't get the geography of the area correct.
There is no place in the new testamant that words attributed to Jesus (In context) that said he was God. Riiiiight. It's only all over the gospels, especially John. "Before Abraham was, I am." "I and the Father are one." "The Father is in me, and I in him." He also forgave sins, which only God could do.
If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 238 by ramoss, posted 08-19-2004 12:28 PM | | ramoss has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 265 by lfen, posted 08-19-2004 8:39 PM | | General Nazort has replied |
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