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Author Topic:   Please give me so-called "proof" of Jesus or God.
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 256 of 320 (135332)
08-19-2004 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by General Nazort
08-03-2004 1:55 AM


Re: Self-Refuting Statement
Actaully, there might be absolutes , but if you read what he said, you absolutely don't know it.
This message has been edited by ramoss, 08-19-2004 04:28 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by General Nazort, posted 08-03-2004 1:55 AM General Nazort has replied

Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 257 of 320 (135335)
08-19-2004 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by almeyda
08-03-2004 2:10 AM


Re: Congo Conversion Factors
Why should we trust the New Testament, since the New testament copied
so much from the Tanakh.
Why would we trust the Torah, when it borrowed so heavily from the Sumarian and the Ugartic Bible?
Why should we trust as 'truth' about the origins of everything from spriitual writings from bronze age goat herders ??

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Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 258 of 320 (135338)
08-19-2004 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by General Nazort
08-03-2004 11:57 PM


Re: Bible is proof
Umm.... where did you get this? Archeology has done nothing but PROVE the historical accuracy of the Bible.
Really now?? Can you point to a peer reviewed archelogical paper about that? Some things have been shown (The invasion of Jerusalum via the aquaducts for example).. but most has not been.
Can you show me evidence of Exodus, Jerica, Sodom and Gomorah?? From a peer reviewed archelogical journal, not some theologist who is trying to push a theological point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by General Nazort, posted 08-03-2004 11:57 PM General Nazort has replied

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General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 259 of 320 (135350)
08-19-2004 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by ramoss
08-19-2004 5:27 PM


Re: Self-Refuting Statement
Actaully, there might be absolutes , but if you read what he said, you absolutely don't know it.
And if you read what I said, that is a self-refuting statement.
Darth Mal said: "To me, there is truth. However, you can never know truth for sure."
The statement "you can never know truth for sure" is assumed to be true! But if you can't really know truth for sure, then you can't know that the statement "you can't know truth for sure" is true. If that statement cannot be known to be true for sure, it is possible that it could not be true, in which case you could know truth for sure.
Actaully, there might be absolutes... [but] you absolutely don't know it.
Are you absolutely sure that "you absolutely don't know it"?

Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the Spanish accent)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by ramoss, posted 08-19-2004 5:27 PM ramoss has not replied

General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 260 of 320 (135351)
08-19-2004 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by ramoss
08-19-2004 5:36 PM


Re: Bible is proof
Can you show me evidence of Exodus, Jerica, Sodom and Gomorah?? From a peer reviewed archelogical journal, not some theologist who is trying to push a theological point.
The point is not what archeology has not yet discovered, it is that it HAS discovered many other cities that are mentioned in the Bible.

Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the Spanish accent)

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Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 08-19-2004 6:01 PM General Nazort has replied

General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 261 of 320 (135360)
08-19-2004 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by ramoss
08-19-2004 5:30 PM


Re: Congo Conversion Factors
Why should we trust the New Testament, since the New testament copied
so much from the Tanakh.
Isn't the Tanakh another name for the Hebrew Bible, aka Old Testament? Of course the New Testament quoted from it a lot...
Why would we trust the Torah, when it borrowed so heavily from the Sumarian and the Ugartic Bible?
I don't know much about this... could you show me proof of how the Torah borrowed from these other bibles?
Why should we trust as 'truth' about the origins of everything from spriitual writings from bronze age goat herders ??
Becaues they were inspired by God? Because they were a lot closer to the events than we were?

Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the Spanish accent)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by ramoss, posted 08-19-2004 5:30 PM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 262 of 320 (135361)
08-19-2004 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by General Nazort
08-19-2004 5:51 PM


Re: Bible is proof
You see, that is also the problem.
It is likely that the authors of the Bible would know local town and cities. The error comes with the related events. For example, the tales of Joshua. If you go by the timeline in the Bible, Joshua was invading empty, abandoned, defensless towns.
Many stories use familar locales, but are still fiction.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by General Nazort, posted 08-19-2004 5:51 PM General Nazort has replied

Replies to this message:
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General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 263 of 320 (135371)
08-19-2004 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by jar
08-19-2004 6:01 PM


Re: Bible is proof
It is likely that the authors of the Bible would know local town and cities. The error comes with the related events. For example, the tales of Joshua. If you go by the timeline in the Bible, Joshua was invading empty, abandoned, defensless towns.
Many stories use familar locales, but are still fiction.
That is one issue still being debated. Different scientists have gotten different dates, some dates work with the Bible and others don't work. But the Bible is still somewhat historically based, at a MINIMUM. Archeology supports the Bible, and where it may disagree there are large debates. And these debates have not had a decided outcome that contradicts the Bible.

Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the Spanish accent)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 08-19-2004 6:01 PM jar has not replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 264 of 320 (135380)
08-19-2004 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by General Nazort
08-19-2004 5:58 PM


Re: Congo Conversion Factors
Because they were a lot closer to the events than we were?
And we are learning a bit about the value of eye witness testimony in another thread.
Conclusion thus far: Not very reliable at all, and false memories are easily induced.

This message is a reply to:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 265 of 320 (135419)
08-19-2004 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by General Nazort
08-19-2004 2:21 PM


Re: There isn't any proof Jesus ever existedI
Lets see you back this up, ramoss. Explain how Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecies, show examples of prophecies that are "mistranslations," and how Matthew didn't get the geography of the area correct.
General,
Thomas Paine may have been one of the first to critically analyze the NT claims about OT prophecies of Jesus.
This is one site that has Paine's writing:
Thomas Paine Examine Prophecies » Internet Infidels
This is what Paine says about what is claimed as one the key prophecies the passage from Isaiah:
But the case is, that the child of which Isaiah speaks was his own child, with which his wife or his mistress was then pregnant; for he says in the next chapter, (Is. viii. 2), "And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the Priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah; and I went unto the Prophetess, and she conceived and bear a son and he says, at ver. 18 of the same chapter, "Behold I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel."
It may not be improper here to observe, that the word translated a virgin in Isaiah, does not signify a virgin in Hebrew, but merely a 'young woman.' The tense is also falsified in the translation. Levi gives the Hebrew text of Isaiah vii. 14, and the translation in English with it -- "Behold a young woman is with child and beareth a son;" [NOTE: A Defence of the Old Testament." By David Levi. London, 1797. -- Editor.] The expression, says he, is in the present tense. This translation agrees with the other circumstances related of the birth of this child which was to be a sign to Ahaz. But as the true translation could not have been imposed upon the world as a prophecy of a child to be born seven hundred years afterwards, the christian translators have falsified the original: and instead of making Isaiah to say, behold a young woman is with child and beareth a son, they have made him to say, "Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son. It is, however, only necessary for a person to read Isaiah vii. and viii., and he will be convinced that the passage in question is no prophecy of the person called Jesus Christ
It might have be Doherty, I'm not sure but the claim has been demonstrated by Paine and I believe Doherty and others that Mark and the other early christians were so eager for scriptural support that they misread many passages to be prophecies of Jesus when the passages were as this one from Isaiah was referring to something else entirely.
We could look at those one by one starting with the material I quoted from Paine if you like.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by General Nazort, posted 08-19-2004 2:21 PM General Nazort has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by General Nazort, posted 08-20-2004 12:47 AM lfen has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 266 of 320 (135468)
08-19-2004 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by ramoss
08-19-2004 12:53 PM


Re: a little bit of interesting news Lam
How else are you going to compare it to real life?
Hi neighbor!

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 267 of 320 (135470)
08-19-2004 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by ramoss
08-19-2004 12:59 PM


Re: a little bit of interesting news Lam
Do you have any objective evidence that you had a dream last night or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by ramoss, posted 08-19-2004 12:59 PM ramoss has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 268 of 320 (135472)
08-19-2004 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by ramoss
08-19-2004 1:34 PM


Re: a little bit of interesting news Lam
Yes I can.

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General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 269 of 320 (135511)
08-20-2004 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by lfen
08-19-2004 8:39 PM


Re: There isn't any proof Jesus ever existedI
It is one thing to say that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies about him, and another to say that a propchey he fulfilled was not a prophecy in the first place. But whatever. Sure, I guesss I will try to go through these one by one with you. Gimme some time to research this one.

Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the French accent!)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by lfen, posted 08-19-2004 8:39 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by lfen, posted 08-20-2004 4:28 AM General Nazort has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 270 of 320 (135559)
08-20-2004 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by General Nazort
08-20-2004 12:47 AM


Re: There isn't any proof Jesus ever existedI
General,
I'm not pushing on this at all. Paine is far better read on the subject than I am. So whenever you get around to is fine with me.
Finally, I have just got to ask what does this mean?
Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the French accent!)
And why for a while was it a spanish accent and now it's a french accent?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by General Nazort, posted 08-20-2004 12:47 AM General Nazort has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by General Nazort, posted 08-22-2004 2:20 AM lfen has replied

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