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Author Topic:   Is this Bible verse about believers and poison to be taken literally?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 106 of 142 (204073)
05-01-2005 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by nator
05-01-2005 8:23 AM


Re: Temptation
No, No...I am the stupidist, I am the stupidist. I am the chief among sinners, not YOU! You are an agnostic relativist!
Which God, again?
When discussing the Bible, do me a favor and stick to the god that you rejected...as a frame of reference.
In reply to my other post where I told you of my illness, I want you to understand that I need an absolute truth in my life!
Now...if only we can all just get along! (Appologies to Rodney King)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by nator, posted 05-01-2005 8:23 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by nator, posted 05-01-2005 9:39 AM Phat has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 107 of 142 (204077)
05-01-2005 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
05-01-2005 8:58 AM


Re: Temptation
quote:
No, No...I am the stupidist, I am the stupidist. I am the chief among sinners, not YOU!
That comment was in reference to the fact that Faith called me "the stupidest person on this forum."
It's just a reminder to her that I have not forgotten.
quote:
You are an agnostic relativist!
Pretty much.
Which God, again?
quote:
When discussing the Bible, do me a favor and stick to the god that you rejected...as a frame of reference.
I can't reject something that I can't determine if it exists or not.
quote:
In reply to my other post where I told you of my illness, I want you to understand that I need an absolute truth in my life!
That's fine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 05-01-2005 8:58 AM Phat has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 108 of 142 (204078)
05-01-2005 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
04-29-2005 1:44 PM


Re: Temptation
quote:
The proof is in the fulfillment, as when Paul was bitten with the snake and was not harmed.
So, does the Bible mention anything about a time limit or any limitation on when these signs would be seen or who would be doing them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 04-29-2005 1:44 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 05-01-2005 12:58 PM nator has not replied
 Message 112 by LinearAq, posted 05-02-2005 6:27 AM nator has replied
 Message 116 by purpledawn, posted 05-03-2005 7:34 AM nator has not replied
 Message 139 by purpledawn, posted 05-06-2005 8:05 AM nator has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 109 of 142 (204116)
05-01-2005 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by nator
05-01-2005 9:41 AM


Signs and Wonders
Time limit?
NIV writes:
1 Cor 13:8-10- Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
Some say that that verse explains away many of the signs and wonders as having ceased. It does not mention "snakes" specifically, but it does mention tongues, which was contextually linked with snakes.

"How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives."-- Anne Dillard
Every tool carries with it the spirit by which it had been created.
-- Werner Karl Heisenberg: (1901-1976) German physicist
I read the newspaper avidly. It is my one form of continuous fiction.
-- Aneurin Bevan: (1897-1960) English politician

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by nator, posted 05-01-2005 9:41 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Hangdawg13, posted 05-02-2005 1:11 AM Phat has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 110 of 142 (204226)
05-02-2005 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
05-01-2005 12:58 PM


Re: Signs and Wonders
My pastor always used to teach that this meant that signs and wonders would cease after the church got going, but I disagree. I think they are continuing even today here in America, but especially in the more obscure parts of the world where Christianity is spreading like a wildfire despite persecution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 05-01-2005 12:58 PM Phat has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 111 of 142 (204229)
05-02-2005 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Hangdawg13
05-02-2005 1:11 AM


Re: Signs and Wonders
My friend who grew up heavy in ole time Assemblies of God type "praying through" at the altar type churches would agree with you. He and I have seen supernbatural manifestations, so i probably should be like him, but I am too skeptical...don't know why>>>

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Hangdawg13, posted 05-02-2005 1:11 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 112 of 142 (204251)
05-02-2005 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by nator
05-01-2005 9:41 AM


Re: Temptation
...does the Bible mention anything about a time limit or any limitation...
Hey! That was my line of questioning!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by nator, posted 05-01-2005 9:41 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 113 of 142 (204253)
05-02-2005 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
04-29-2005 1:02 PM


Re: Reasons
Faith writes:
Statement *I* made you say?
Exd 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Exodus quote: Out of context in the conversation between God and Moses concerning whether or not God would reveal His glory to Moses. I don't see how this relates to the subject of salvation.
Romans quotes: They are within Paul's explanation of why he evangelizes the gentiles and the fact that they, too, are included in the plan of salvation. Certainly, the quote relates to salvation but I am reading it as God is not limited to extending his "mercy" to the original "Children of God". Besides, applying this passage to the idea that God chooses who will be saved flys in the face of the passages that state He wants all to come to Him. Plus, it kinda negates the need for evangelism because God doesn't need you to tell everyone about Jesus if God Himself makes the choice (or actually made the choice already) of who gets to be saved.
Faith writes:
On topic, you still need to Biblically support your position that the gifts and miracles from Mark 16:17 and 18 are for only particular types of unbelievers and not for those who, like Thomas, require physical evidence.
This was my inference from passages already provided, but I could add this one
1Cr 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Unless I am missing something, NONE of the "passages already provided" show any limitation on WHICH unbelievers that the "signs" are supposed to impress enough to convince them to be saved. Unless you are saying the the people of the United States (for example) actually do believe but refuse to accept. That is a bit of a stretch, I think.
Your reasonable conjecture based on facts already presented?!! Those 'facts' are only the observation that the miracles are not seen in the "West" and assertions you made, without any Biblical backup.
Look, I am willing to accept, for this discussion, that the Bible is absolutely true. That means that you can use the Bible to explain any conclusion that you have drawn about the passage in question. In fact, you must support your interpretation of these passages with the Bible since It is the source of revealed knowledge in the matters of God. Extra Biblical assumptions without support are just your opinion and carry no weight in this discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 04-29-2005 1:02 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 114 of 142 (204258)
05-02-2005 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
04-25-2005 10:24 PM


Another personal view
Hi, Schraff! Thanks for the personal encouragement, by the way!
Getting back to your original topic where you say
It {The Bible} very clearly says that anyone who believes that Jesus is the Messiah will be able to drink any deadly thing without coming to any harm.
It also very clearly says that believers will be able to heal sick people simply by touching them.
If we are to take these statements literally, then why isn't it common knowledge that Christians are immune to poison? Also, why don't we see real, undeniable faith healing by believers instead of that fraudulent huxster stuff?
Personally, I believe that there are very few believers who are ready to have their faith stretched to such a point that they would be ready vessels for Gods demonstrative powers. Many Biblical commentators think that the Church of Laodecia describes the current atmosphere in America..to wit:Rev 3:14-18
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold-I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
Here in America, we have a lukewarm church. We are Christians in principle, but were there to be a big test of our faith, it is questionable if many (or even few) Christians would be ready to deny the reality of the system around them for Gods sake.
Another thread that you started mentioned the possibility of America becoming a police state. I will continue my line of thought there. PB
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-02-2005 07:04 AM
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-02-2005 07:05 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 04-25-2005 10:24 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 115 of 142 (204289)
05-02-2005 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by LinearAq
05-02-2005 6:27 AM


Re: Temptation
Yeah, I know.
I thought it was good, so I stole it, because I am a godless immoral Agnostic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by LinearAq, posted 05-02-2005 6:27 AM LinearAq has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 116 of 142 (204578)
05-03-2005 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by nator
05-01-2005 9:41 AM


Good News and Signs
Reading the passage at face value without added tradition, I can understand why there are no more signs etc.
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
The "good news" that Jesus preached was:
Mark 1:14-15
After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"
That is not what Christianity preaches today, therefore the signs are not there.
1 Corinthians 13:10
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
Even Paul preached as though the kingdom of God was imminent.
As far as not testing God, God does not deter us from testing those who claim to speak for him, those who claim to know his will, those who claim to be apostles, or spirits that seem to come from God.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by nator, posted 05-01-2005 9:41 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by LinearAq, posted 05-03-2005 7:50 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 118 by LinearAq, posted 05-03-2005 7:53 AM purpledawn has replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 117 of 142 (204580)
05-03-2005 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by purpledawn
05-03-2005 7:34 AM


Re: Good News and Signs
purpledawn writes:
Mark 1:14-15
After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"
That is not what Christianity preaches today, therefore the signs are not there.
Christians today don't preach that the kingdom of God is imminent? I wholeheartedly disagree! What was that entire "Left Behind" book series about? The evangelicals have been pointing to the sky since they took root. The Baptists have been waiting for the rapture from the time they were established. They have been baptising everyone they can get their hands on. All sects of Christianity preach repentance. I don't see one thing that you delineated that is not preached by Christians somewhere.
Perhaps you need to explain more fully what you mean by "That is not what Christianity preaches today..."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by purpledawn, posted 05-03-2005 7:34 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by purpledawn, posted 05-03-2005 8:52 AM LinearAq has replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 118 of 142 (204582)
05-03-2005 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by purpledawn
05-03-2005 7:34 AM


Re: Good News and Signs
How did you post the day before the post to which you are replying?
Is your computer's clock off or what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by purpledawn, posted 05-03-2005 7:34 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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redseal
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 142 (204584)
05-03-2005 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
04-25-2005 10:24 PM


You have asked an important question. And you will have an important answer:
Yes, indeed The Lord's Chosen shall be safe from harm if they drink poisons. For God's Rigorous Instruction does not contain falsehoods!
The fact that many "believers" die from diseases, poisons and illnesses is proof that they are not True Christians. These false christians are cotton-wool charlatans that have ignored the Lord's tenets; their insincere and half-hearted belief in the Power and Majesty of The Lord God Almighty means that they are as damned as the most wicked sinner!
This message has been edited by redseal, 05-03-2005 08:17 AM

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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 120 of 142 (204596)
05-03-2005 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by LinearAq
05-03-2005 7:50 AM


Re: Good News and Signs
Mark 13:30
I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
That is near, at hand, imminent.
Two thousand years+ is not "at hand."
quote:
What was that entire "Left Behind" book series about?
The author's impression of what the Christian rapture will be like.
quote:
The Baptists have been waiting for the rapture from the time they were established. They have been baptising everyone they can get their hands on. All sects of Christianity preach repentance.
They don't preach that the Kingdom of God is imminent, unless of course some major disaster happens or a millenium comes about.
Christian Baptist Beliefs excerpt:
Christian Baptist beliefs about SALVATION: We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures as a substitutionary sacrifice, and that all who believe-on Him and repent (fully acknowledge that they have sinned against God by breaking His holy law, and turn from sin to Christ) are justified on the ground of His shed blood on the cross, and are saved by grace through faith, wholly apart from human-merit and works. (John 1:29; Acts 13:38, 39; 16:31; Romans 3: 21-28; Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:3-8; Luke 13:3,5)
Christian Baptist beliefs about EVANGELISM: We believe that it is the privilege and responsibility of every believer to be a personal soul winner and to do his utmost to give the Gospel of Christ to the whole world....
They preach the "good news" of Christ not that the Kingdom of God is at hand.
I've been a Protestant Christian for over 40 years. Never felt the Kingdom was imminent from what the churches taught. Evangelist gave the message repent so you don't burn in hell, not that the Kingdom is imminent. The only thing imminent is our own mortality.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by LinearAq, posted 05-03-2005 7:50 AM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by LinearAq, posted 05-03-2005 4:33 PM purpledawn has replied

  
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