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Author
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Topic: Cherry Picking the Bible- Leviticus and Other OT Rules
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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5856 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: 12-27-2005
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Message 1 of 82 (320706)
06-12-2006 7:17 AM
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So there are a lot of rules in the bible. There is of course a well known one against homosexuality:
Leviticus 20:13 clearly states "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." What else do the laws of Leviticus say:
"'Observe my regulations. "'Don't let your livestock mate with those of another kind, don't sow your field with two different kinds of grain, and don't wear a garment of cloth made with two different kinds of thread. (Leviticus 19:19) Don't round your hair at the temples or mar the edges of your beard. (Leviticus 19:27) "'A person who curses his father or mother must be put to death; having cursed his father or his mother, his blood is on him. (Leviticus 20:9) "'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, that is, with the wife of a fellow countryman, both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10) The man who goes to bed with his father's wife has disgraced his father sexually, and both of them must be put to death; their blood is on them. (Leviticus 20:11) If a man marries a woman and her mother, it is depravity; they are to be put to death by fire, both he and they, so that there will not be depravity among you. (Leviticus 20:14) 20:15 If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you are to kill the animal. 20:16 If a woman approaches an animal and has sexual relations with it, you are to kill the woman and the animal; their blood will be on them. (Leviticus 20:15-16). If a man goes to bed with a woman in her menstrual period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her blood, and she has exposed the source of her blood; both of them are to be cut off from their people. (Leviticus 20:18) "'A man or woman who is a spirit-medium or sorcerer must be put to death; they are to stone them to death; their blood will be on them.'" . (Leviticus 20:27) The daughter of a cohen who profanes herself by prostitution profanes her father; she is to be put to death by fire. (Leviticus 21:9) 21:17 "Tell Aharon, 'None of your descendants who has a defect may approach to offer the bread of his God. 21:18 No one with a defect may approach - no one blind, lame, with a mutilated face or a limb too long, (Leviticus 21:17-18) 24:14 "Take the man who cursed outside the camp, have everyone who heard him lay their hands on his head, and have the entire community stone him. 24:15 Then tell the people of Isra'el, 'Whoever curses his God will bear the consequences of his sin; 24:16 and whoever blasphemes the name of ADONAI must be put to death; the entire community must stone him. The foreigner as well as the citizen is to be put to death if he blasphemes the Name. (Leviticus 24:14-16) Throughout Leviticus God states that these laws are to be followed forever. Hmmm. Translations from crosswalk.com - The complete jewish bible (recommended by PD - thanks!) Another favorite:
Leviticus 18:19-23 " 'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period. 20" 'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her. 21" 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord. 22" 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. 23" 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion. Lev 25:44 "'Concerning the men and women you may have as slaves: you are to buy men- and women-slaves from the nations surrounding you. Does this mean I can choose between mexicans and candians?
'If a woman has a discharge, and the discharge from her body is blood, she shall be set apart seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening. Everything that she lies on during her impurity shall be unclean; also everything that she sits on shall be unclean. Whoever touches her bed shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening. And whoever touches anything that she sat on shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening. If anything is on her bed or on anything on which she sits, when he touches it, he shall be unclean until evening. And if any man lies with her at all, so that her impurity is on him, he shall be unclean seven days; and every bed on which he lies shall be unclean.' You women better stay inside when "aunt flo" is in town. Why do many people feel it's ok to cherry pick the laws they like from the bible, yet ignore others. Do they know which laws god is still enforcing? Also, what are your favorite biblical rules? Mine is the one about owning slaves from neighboring countries. I'm thinking about getting myself a nice canadian. I think we can start with the Leviticus laws and discuss why people think it's ok to follow some, but not others.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 3 by ramoss, posted 06-12-2006 10:29 AM | | SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied | | | Message 4 by purpledawn, posted 06-12-2006 11:07 AM | | SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied | | | Message 9 by nator, posted 06-14-2006 5:57 PM | | SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied |
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator
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Message 2 of 82 (320708)
06-12-2006 7:19 AM
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Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 634 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
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I don't know why people have a buffet style method. I suspect they choose those aspects that alread fit their life. From an historical perspective, you ahve to look at what Leviticus was supposed to be. It , for the most part, was rituals and customs that dealt with the priesthood, and the temple. For example, in Levitucus 20, when discussing the sexual realtionship with a slave if she is 'bethrothed' to another man, Although technically the betrothal has not happened (since she still is a slave), it is saying that the offense against God still has to be dealth with. The "ashram" offering of guilt has to be satisified (see levitucus 5:14-26). So, in the context of the time, it is basically saying that devotion to god has to meet the spirit, rather than just the legalities. THen, look at the mixed fabric prohibition. The Priestly fabrics of the time were made of linen and wool. By prohibiting people to use the same kind of fabrics as the priests, it was making a seperation between the sacred and the mundane. Now, when it comes to 'a man also lie with a woman'. .. you have to also some other parts of the bible. The 'homosexual' act for the ancients was basically an act of force associated with humiliation, revenge or subjecation (see The Jewish Study Bible, page 251). It is this act of humilation via sex that they are talking about (at least one interpretation, also see Judg 19.22). They were not talking about a loving same-gender relationship, because they didn't acknowledge that existed at all. Now, the Orthodox Jews also have certain sexual restrictions, but that is more about the 'waste of seed'.. (silly in my opinion, but hey, different strokes and all). I don't think that the laws of the Leviticus are even UNDERSTOOD for what they were by most. The cultural context has been lost, or made irrelevent. The translation of 'abomination' is actually better translated as 'ritualistically unclean'. And, it specifically dealt with the Jewish relationship to the temple, and rules that the priests have to follow also.
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Does God Enforce?
I'm glad ramoss brought in the Jewish understanding.
quote:
Why do many people feel it's ok to cherry pick the laws they like from the bible, yet ignore others. Do they know which laws god is still enforcing?
Of the 613 laws from the Bible, which ones has God actually enforced?
quote:
I think we can start with the Leviticus laws and discuss why people think it's ok to follow some, but not others.
But do they even follow the one's they pick? What you call cherry picking is nothing more than not following laws that have gone obsolete. Unfortunately they do dredge up old ones to suit their purpose. It is like pulling up an obsolete law that is still on the books and enforcing it today.
**Bathing is prohibited during the winter. **Citizens are not allowed to attend a movie house or theater nor ride in a public streetcar within four hours after eating garlic. Someone could bring them up and choose to follow them, but officials aren't enforcing them anymore. I guess they have to have a reason for their actions. Reminds me of an old Dead Zone show.
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 634 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
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Message 5 of 82 (321485)
06-14-2006 3:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by purpledawn
06-12-2006 11:07 AM
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Re: Does God Enforce?
Out of the 613 laws on the book, many are currently invalid, since they specifically deal with the Temple, and there isn't any temple. Out of the ones that are left, God does not 'enforce' any of them. They are rituals and restrictions that the Jews have 'chosen' to follow to be able to live a more sanctified life, and become closer to god.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by purpledawn, posted 06-12-2006 11:07 AM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5856 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: 12-27-2005
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Message 6 of 82 (321491)
06-14-2006 3:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by purpledawn
06-12-2006 11:07 AM
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Re: Does God Enforce?
What you call cherry picking is nothing more than not following laws that have gone obsolete. Unfortunately they do dredge up old ones to suit their purpose. Maybe Cherry picking was the wrong term. I certainly wouldn't claim that people should be following any of those laws and you guys have given good reasons as to why. Myabe the term should be "dredging up obsolete laws"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by purpledawn, posted 06-12-2006 11:07 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 7 by purpledawn, posted 06-14-2006 4:39 PM | | SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Why Dredge Them Up?
Given what ramoss has stated
Out of the 613 laws on the book, many are currently invalid, since they specifically deal with the Temple, and there isn't any temple.
Out of the ones that are left, God does not 'enforce' any of them. They are rituals and restrictions that the Jews have 'chosen' to follow to be able to live a more sanctified life, and become closer to god. and that Chritianity proclaims they are not under the law, the question remains: Why dredge up old rules? I haven't had a Christian who dredges give me a reasonable answer to that question yet.
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 8 by mjfloresta, posted 06-14-2006 5:35 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 6015 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: 06-08-2006
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Message 8 of 82 (321538)
06-14-2006 5:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 7 by purpledawn
06-14-2006 4:39 PM
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Re: Why Dredge Them Up?
Which rules are you talking about that Christians dredge up? I think you'll find that all of the old testament laws (especially the Levitical laws) that seem to be dredged up today are actually truths espoused and reinforced throughout Scripture... For example...In the original post, SuperNintendoChalmers mentions many levitical laws dealing with sexual relations...The specifics of these laws are first mentioned in Leviticus...however, the reality of these laws has always existed...Where? In Genesis, at creation specifically, when God established marriage and all of the accompanying relations as between one man and one woman...All of the Levitical laws pertaining to sexual relations fall under the umbrella of this "creation ordinance of marriage", including the prohibition of homosexuality...So the "substance" or the reality of the laws existed before their actual specific institution to Israel...Therefore when Christians try "dredge up" Old Testament laws, these laws are just as applicable today as in ancient times because they do not hinge on factors like: Old Testament vs New Testament, or The Temple no longer exists, etc....but rather on the fact that these laws are merely reflections/reinforcements of pre-existing biblical truths...
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by purpledawn, posted 06-14-2006 4:39 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 11 by purpledawn, posted 06-14-2006 10:31 PM | | mjfloresta has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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quote:
Also, what are your favorite biblical rules? Mine is the one about owning slaves from neighboring countries. I'm thinking about getting myself a nice canadian.
My favorite is the one prohibiting the wearing of mixed fiber clothing.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 10 by ramoss, posted 06-14-2006 9:53 PM | | nator has not replied |
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 634 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
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Message 10 of 82 (321620)
06-14-2006 9:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 9 by nator
06-14-2006 5:57 PM
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That specific one is because the Priests wore linen and wool, and that was specifically a prohibition against the masses not to mix the sacred and the mundane. Personally, it seems elitist to me. However, the ancient jews put a lot of effort in seperationg the sacred from the normal life.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by nator, posted 06-14-2006 5:57 PM | | nator has not replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 11 of 82 (321638)
06-14-2006 10:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by mjfloresta
06-14-2006 5:35 PM
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Re: Why Dredge Them Up?
quote:
In Genesis, at creation specifically, when God established marriage and all of the accompanying relations as between one man and one woman...All of the Levitical laws pertaining to sexual relations fall under the umbrella of this "creation ordinance of marriage", including the prohibition of homosexuality...
I think you need to read Genesis again.
Genesis 2:24
For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. No mention of marriage or what constitutes marriage. What I see above is a creative way of describing procreation. That's pretty standard for the animal kingdom that I have seen. As far as prohibition against homosexuality...
Lev 20:13
'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them. this verse only concerns men and since there were some very strange religious rituals within other cultures, I wonder whether it concerns that, as opposed to, a loving relationship. You change it if you include women.
quote:
these laws are just as applicable today as in ancient times because they do not hinge on factors like: Old Testament vs New Testament, or The Temple no longer exists, etc....but rather on the fact that these laws are merely reflections/reinforcements of pre-existing biblical truths...
But why aren't all the laws applicable today? Clean and unclean food, circumcision, not creating hybrids, etc. Why are only some still applicable? That is the question.
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by mjfloresta, posted 06-14-2006 5:35 PM | | mjfloresta has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 13 by mjfloresta, posted 06-14-2006 11:41 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4015 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: 06-08-2004
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Message 12 of 82 (321654)
06-14-2006 11:19 PM
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Always thought that if people are flat out remembering and adhering to the Ten Commandments (Mark One), it would be wishful thinking to lay out another 613 ordinances. Makes YHWH seem like anally retentive or a nit-picker par-excellence. 
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mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 6015 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: 06-08-2006
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Re: Why Dredge Them Up?
I think you need to read Genesis again. Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. No mention of marriage or what constitutes marriage. What I see above is a creative way of describing procreation. That's pretty standard for the animal kingdom that I have seen. I think you need to read Genesis again...for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his WIFE!! his what? and they shall be one flesh...the same terminology used today at marriage ceremonies...you really believe it's not talking about marriage? come on...
As far as prohibition against homosexuality... Lev 20:13 'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them. this verse only concerns men and since there were some very strange religious rituals within other cultures, I wonder whether it concerns that, as opposed to, a loving relationship. You change it if you include women. You are correct that this verse only mentions male homosexual relationships...however as I mentioned aboved...the authority which condemns homosexual relationships is not to be found solely in Leviticus - although it was specifically instituted for the Israelites - but originally in Eden when God instituted marriage as between a man and a woman... Your last question is most appropriate; Many Christians today could not answer it appropriately and that is why this very topic is appropriate in the first place...many Christians do randomly apply Old testament laws while discarding others... The levitical laws were specifically instituted for the israelites under the temple system for one main reason: to reveal the nature of God and to point to the messiah..some were "moral laws" like the prohibition against sexual relations...others were cerimonial laws, regardless they all were fulfilled by Jesus Christ - Romans 10:4 "Christ is the end of the law so that there might be righteousness for everyone who believes" and Galatians 3:23-25, "Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law..." The law had a purpose: to reveal the Christ..having done so it's purpose is over - not that it no longer holds but that it the image has been superseded by the reality..
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by purpledawn, posted 06-14-2006 10:31 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: Why Dredge Them Up?
mjfloresta writes: and they shall be one flesh...the same terminology used today at marriage ceremonies... Umm... the terminology is used today because it's in the Bible. You can't project today's marriage concepts all the way back to the garden. And "they shall be one flesh" is a rather obvious reference to their offspring, is it not?
...for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his WIFE!! his what? Would "his woman" have the same connotations for you? Would it remove some of the white-dress/maid-of-honour/best-man/wedding-cake/honeymoon confusion?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by mjfloresta, posted 06-14-2006 11:41 PM | | mjfloresta has replied |
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mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 6015 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: 06-08-2006
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Message 15 of 82 (321674)
06-15-2006 12:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 14 by ringo
06-15-2006 12:26 AM
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Re: Why Dredge Them Up?
mjfloresta writes: and they shall be one flesh...the same terminology used today at marriage ceremonies... Umm... the terminology is used today because it's in the Bible. You can't project today's marriage concepts all the way back to the garden. OK..now that's quite a contradiction...you tell me that today's marriage concepts can't be projected back to the garden but you also tell me that today's marriage terminology comes from the Bible (Aka Adam and Eve)...which is it?
And "they shall be one flesh" is a rather obvious reference to their offspring, is it not? How do you get that it refers to their offspring? Instead of conjecturing I'll use Scripture to provide the answer: Paul in Ephesians 5:28-31 "In this same way (speaking of Christ's love for the church - my note, not part of the verse), husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church - for we are members of his body. FOR THIS REASON A MAN WILL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE UNITED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO WILL BECOME ONE FLESH"... Clearly not talking about offspring but a "union"...dare we say marriage?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 14 by ringo, posted 06-15-2006 12:26 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 16 by ringo, posted 06-15-2006 1:12 AM | | mjfloresta has replied |
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