Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,816 Year: 3,073/9,624 Month: 918/1,588 Week: 101/223 Day: 12/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Cherry Picking the Bible- Leviticus and Other OT Rules
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 46 of 82 (324215)
06-21-2006 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 3:16 PM


Bump for mjfloresta
Don't leave me hanging.
I still want to discuss how the purpose of the law is over but they still hold even though we don't follow all of them.
Please see my Message 45
quote:
Jesus in the gospels and Paul in his letters both explain the fulfillment of the Law as being Love of God and Love of neighbors
Also where is this explained?
Mark
12:30
'And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and will all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.'
12:31
"The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
This just says that there are no commandments greater than these two, not that we stop following the others.
Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, which means to interpret them correctly. Not sure how that tells us today which OT laws to follow and which ones not to follow.
So why dredge up the one about homosexual men?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 3:16 PM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by mjfloresta, posted 06-21-2006 5:59 PM purpledawn has replied

  
mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 5993 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 47 of 82 (324520)
06-21-2006 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by purpledawn
06-21-2006 6:58 AM


Re: Bump for mjfloresta
Sorry for not responding earlier, i've been away - not dodging your questions...
Anyways, I just spent a good long time typing a response when my internet explorer quit...so here goes again...
In response to the two commandments (love of God and love of man) being the greatest of the commands, that is true, but they are more than that...
Matthew 7:12 - So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 22:37-41 - Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Luke 10:25-27 - On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
Galatians 5:13-14 - You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
So the two commandments "love of God" and "love of man/neigbor" are clearly the reality behind the law - not just the greatest of the commandments...
As far as Jesus coming to fulfill the law..It's true that the laws are to be properly interpreted (i'll address that shortly) - however that is not what it means that Jesus fulfilled the law but something else entirely...
How did Christ fulfill the law? Let's look at the purpose of the law as laid out in Scriptue:
The first thing to say about the law is that perfect obedience to the law results in life (righteousness) and blessing..the Old Testament is replete with God's commands to obey his law and the blessings that would follow such obedience, as is the New Testament:
Leviticus 18:4-5 - You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD.
Leviticus 25:18-19 - 'Follow my decrees and be careful to obey my laws, and you will live safely in the land. Then the land will yield its fruit, and you will eat your fill and live there in safety..
Deuteronomy 4: 1-3 - Hear now, O Israel, the decrees and laws I am about to teach you. Follow them so that you may live and may go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
Deuteronomy 6:24-26 - The LORD commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the LORD our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today. 25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness."
Deuteronomy 7:12 - If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers.
Romans 2:13 - For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
So righteousness is for whoever perfectly obeys the law...however the next point is that no one actually can or has perfectly obeyed the law (aka..none IS righteous)
Romans 3:9-20 - What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."

18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Romans 5:12-14 - Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned - for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come...
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
So far we have seen that obeying the law perfectly brings righteousness; however none have attained this righteousness since all have sinned...We have also seen that the price of sin/unrighteousness is death...What then is the point of the law, if none can achieve righteousness by it?
Romans 3:19-21 - Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
Romans 5:20-21 - The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 7:7 - What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law.
Galatians 3:19 - What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.
Galatians 3:23-24 - Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
The point of the Law? To show man his unrighteousness and to point to Christ..
The last few points will demonstrate how Christ came to fulfill the law (and what that means)
Christ himself claims to fulfill the law:
Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
The law points to Christ:
Matthew 11:12-14 - From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
Luke 24:43-45 - and he took it and ate it in their presence. He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." 45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
John 1 44-46: Philip, like Andrew and Peter, was from the town of Bethsaida. Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote”Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."
How does Christ fulfill the Law?
Romans 3:20-22: Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
Romans 7:5-7: For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Romans 8:2-4 - because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Romans 10:3-5 - 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Romans 13:8-9 - 8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,' and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Galatians 3:12-14 -12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Ephesians 2:14-16 - 14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
So Christ fulfills the law by: A. living the righteous life that no other can. B. imparting his righteousness to unrighteous man as a free gift. C. Taking the punishment required by the law for those who are not righteous. Therefore, the life that could not be earned under the law, is received throught the free gift of Christ...That is the fulfillment of the law...
How does all this tie in with what scriptural laws we now should follow?
Probably the best way to answer this question is to look at how Christ himself deals with the law..as well as the rest of scripture...(i know this post is already enormous and the scriptures dealing with the law are incredibly extensive so I will try to limit myself to while sufficiently conveying the point)...
Matthew 12:9-11 - 9Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"
11He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
13Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other.
Matthew 19:3-6 - 3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
Matthew 23:23-24 - 23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices”mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law”justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
John 5:5-11 - One who was there had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, "Do you want to get well?"
7"Sir," the invalid replied, "I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me."
8Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." 9At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, 10and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat."
11But he replied, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Pick up your mat and walk.' "
John 8
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
How did Christ deal with the Law? Keep in mind two things: 1. It was Christ who said that "I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it" and "Not one jot or tiddle of this law will pass away" and 2. That Christ looked beyond the law to what it represented (as I have discussed before)... In each of the above examples, Christ points to a reality deeper than the law itself - each reality being already existant in Scripture...
1. When Christ healed the man on the Sabbath, he disregarded the law to not work on the Sabbath in order to demonstrate his love for the man...
2. In the question on divorce, Christ actually goes against the Law of Moses (permitting divorce)...why? To demonstrate the principle of "love of neighbor/man" that was God's original intention..How do we know this? How did Christ know this? He went back to scripture - the creation ordinance in this case to know God's original intention...Furthermore, to reject God's ordinance would not only not be "love of neighbor" but also not "love of God" because it would entail disobedience...
3. In the example of tithing the herbs and spices Christ is showing the true form of love - genuine love as demonstrated by "justice", "mercy" and "faithfulness" versus a display of love (tithing) without the true spirit of love...
4. Likewise the healing of the invalid shows love of man...
5. The story of the prostitute shows not that her sin isn't deserving of death - according to the law it is - but that everyone, her accusers included has committed some sin worthy of death - but that a greater law of mercy (neither do I accuse you) has trumped the law of death..
To recap..
1. The law sets the standard for righteousness. 2. Whoever meets this standard achieves righteousness. 3. No one achieves this standard of themselves. 4. Failure to meet this standard results in death. 5. Christ came to earth to achieve this standard (fulfilling the law)which he did. 6. Christ offers his righteousness to whoever desires it. 7. Christ died to take the punishment that under the law was due us (fulfilling the law). 8. The end (fulfillment) of the law is Christ. 9. The end (essence) of the law is "love of God" and "love of neighbor". 10. Christ is therefore the fulfillment of the law both because he satisfies its requirements (he lived a righteous life, he took the punishment for our unrighteousness) and because he demonstrated perfect love of God and love of man.
So the law is a reflection of the greater reality...
That does not make the laws any less "true" or significant; rather these realities have been superseded by a greater one as demonstrated by Christ (this is not, however, a new concept, as the Old Testament testifies to Love of God and Love of man as being the greatest commandments)..
Every command of scripture and every principle that a Christian would use to guide their life must be evaluated under the same lens as that used by Christ, who judged all situations in the light of God's previous revelation to man and the truths explicitly and implicitly revealed in such revelation...
I believe I have accurately laid out what Scripture has to say about the law and its daily application in our lives...if I have missed something or need to clarify anything please let me know...Thanks for bearing with me on a very long post which I hope has been helpful to all...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by purpledawn, posted 06-21-2006 6:58 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by purpledawn, posted 06-22-2006 8:09 AM mjfloresta has not replied
 Message 49 by Nighttrain, posted 06-26-2006 2:31 AM mjfloresta has not replied
 Message 60 by purpledawn, posted 07-02-2006 5:16 PM mjfloresta has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 48 of 82 (324777)
06-22-2006 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by mjfloresta
06-21-2006 5:59 PM


Fulfillment of the Law
quote:
Anyways, I just spent a good long time typing a response when my internet explorer quit
I hate when that happens.
In our own venacular fulfilling a law means to obey it and righteous means doing what is right or just.
quote:
So righteousness is for whoever perfectly obeys the law...however the next point is that no one actually can or has perfectly obeyed the law (aka..none IS righteous)
The Bible writings do not support that the law must be obeyed "perfectly", which I assume by saying that you mean never to miss the mark even a smidge. See below for those deemed righteous.
As far as Romans 3:9. Paul (not Jesus or God) is making the charge that all people, Jews, and Gentiles alike are controlled by sin. His "quote" stating that no one is righteous is made up of verses from five different songs (Psalm 14:1-3 or 53:2-4, 5:9, 140:3, 10:7, and 36:2) and Proverbs 1:16.
Psalms 14:1
Fools say in their hearts.
"There is no God."
They deal corruptly, their deeds are vile, not one does what is right.
quote:
So Christ fulfills the law by: A. living the righteous life that no other can.
I agree with this in the sense that he followed the spirit of the laws, but I don't agree with the "no other can" part. Others were spoken of as righteous by the synoptic writers.
Mark 6:20
for Herod was afraid of John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he kept him safe. And when he heard him, he was very perplexed; but he used to enjoy listening to him.
Luke 1:5-6
In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.
Luke 2:25
And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
Luke 23:50
And a man named Joseph, who was a member of the Council, a good and righteous man
Even in Mark, Jesus supposedly didn't care to be referred to as good.
Mr 10:18
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good ? No one is good except God alone.
quote:
B. imparting his righteousness to unrighteous man as a free gift.
That may help others to fulfill/obey the laws, but it doesn't change the laws. It should make it easier for us to follow them.
Jeremiah 31:33
"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
quote:
C. Taking the punishment required by the law for those who are not righteous. Therefore, the life that could not be earned under the law, is received throught the free gift of Christ...That is the fulfillment of the law...
What life do you feel people were trying to earn? The laws weren't given to earn a life. They were devised for a budding nation.
The punishments associated with the OT laws don't pertain to the afterlife, they pertained to physical life. If I break any of our laws, I still suffer the punishment, even if it is death.
quote:
So the two commandments "love of God" and "love of man/neigbor" are clearly the reality behind the law - not just the greatest of the commandments...
They are the spirit or the intent behind the laws concerning our behavior in life.
Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
In the Jewish venacular of the time, to abolish or destroy the law means to interpret it incorrectly, just as to fulfill the law means to interpret it correctly. As you pointed out in the teachings of Jesus, he brought forth the spirit of the law which is interpreting them correctly.
So given what we have both stated so far, what we have is Jesus teaching the spirit or intent behind the laws (love God and love your neighbor as yourself). That didn't change or stop any laws in his time. But as the teaching continued through Judaism and Christianity, those cultures as they matured continued to change and update their laws. Even the oral law came about as a way to upgrade and allow the laws to change with the culture.
Since Jesus stresses the spirit of the law, the question still remains: Why dredge up old laws that are obsolete?
The loving homosexual relationships today do not go against the golden rule or loving God. Why hang on to it.
Adultery no longer carries a death sentence. The act of adultery is not a loving gesture towards one's spouse and is not a nice thing to do, but no death sentence.
Divorce wasn't a two way street in Moses' time. Only men could give papers and just for the fact that the woman couldn't bear children. Not a way to love your neighbor. Now it is a two way street. It isn't loving to your neighbor to keep them in a bad or dangerous marriage.
We no longer put mediums to death.
The verse used against homosexuality only concerns men, but it has evolved to include women.
Even adultery has evolved to be different than its origin.
Bible Encyclopaedia and Scriptural Dictionary, 1902
In the common acceptation of the word adultery denotes the sexual intercourse of a married woman with any other man than her husband, or of a married man with any other woman than his wife. But the crime is not understood in this extent among Eastern nations, nor was it so understood by the Jews. With them, adultery was the act whereby any married man was exposed to the risk of having a spuriious offspring imposed upon him. An adulterer was, therefore, any man who had illicit intercourse with a married or betrothed woman; and an adulteress was a betrothed or married woman who had intercouse with any other man than her husband.
I understand why most of the OT laws are obsolete and how we (United States) have matured past the need for death sentences (except in extreme murder cases), but I don't understand why Christians need to dredge up the ruling against male homosexuals.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by mjfloresta, posted 06-21-2006 5:59 PM mjfloresta has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 49 of 82 (326296)
06-26-2006 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by mjfloresta
06-21-2006 5:59 PM


Re: Bump for mjfloresta
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
Most scholars contend that the pericope de adultera is an interpolation. They are hammering it out at present over at Infidels. Ever wonder why the adulterer (male) never got a mention?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by mjfloresta, posted 06-21-2006 5:59 PM mjfloresta has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 50 of 82 (326691)
06-26-2006 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by purpledawn
06-15-2006 2:56 PM


Re: Purpose is Over, But Still Holds
I always thought it was strange that the verse stated that a man would leave his father and mother and cleave to the woman, but makes no mention of the woman's family. But if you look at ancient marriages, it seems that the woman actually leaves her family and not necessarily because she wants to (Tamar).
it doesn't say that the women leave their families for a reason, imo. jewish culture is matrilineal (the mother's line determines kinship... you're only a jew if your mother is a jew). i imagine it used to be matrilocal (families live with their maternal relatives) as well. however, some of the importance of this seems to have been lost on the actual writers of the bible... especially those with the paternal begats everywhere.
oh. btw. you lost your link to the origins of the word wife a couple posts back. you typed v instead of hitting ctrl v. i'd love to see the link... your debate opponent clearly didn't bother to look at it or he would have, no doubt, mentioned that the v for vendetta movie has little to do with wives.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by purpledawn, posted 06-15-2006 2:56 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by arachnophilia, posted 06-26-2006 11:55 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 55 by purpledawn, posted 06-27-2006 8:18 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 51 of 82 (326695)
06-26-2006 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by purpledawn
06-16-2006 5:26 AM


Re: One Flesh
just kind of a side note. i find it interesting that jewish interpretation and writing (the little i've seen) says so very much about sex and christian writing says so very much about not ~(sex). (that's to be read as "the negation of all that is included in the set of sex.)
insert greek ideals of purity here.
i think it's entirely likely that the tanakh is talking about sex and paul is talking about marriage. it wouldn't be the first time a new culture reevaluated old material. the problem is that both interpretations are "correct" in a theological sense, but from different schools and are, unfortunately, likely to be entirely incompatible. it's kind of like "did jesus obey god by being fruitful and multiplying or did he obey god and be chaste?" both are "correct", but in entirely different spheres of thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by purpledawn, posted 06-16-2006 5:26 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 52 of 82 (326696)
06-26-2006 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by macaroniandcheese
06-26-2006 11:43 PM


Re: Purpose is Over, But Still Holds
it doesn't say that the women leave their families for a reason, imo. jewish culture is matrilineal (the mother's line determines kinship... you're only a jew if your mother is a jew). i imagine it used to be matrilocal (families live with their maternal relatives) as well. however, some of the importance of this seems to have been lost on the actual writers of the bible... especially those with the paternal begats everywhere.
nearly every single example i can think of for families in the old testament involve children and even grandchildren living under their father's roof. the women marry into a family, not the men.
the only counter-example at hand is jacob, who lived under laban's roof, and worked for him as a dowery for this wives. but that was out of trickery, not custom -- and in the end, jacob flees and takes his wives with him. and a bunch of sheep, too.
mothers determine heritage, yes. but fathers determine families, line of kings, etc.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-26-2006 11:43 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-27-2006 12:04 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 53 of 82 (326697)
06-27-2006 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by arachnophilia
06-26-2006 11:55 PM


Re: Purpose is Over, But Still Holds
nearly every single example i can think of for families in the old testament involve children and even grandchildren living under their father's roof. the women marry into a family, not the men.
you didn't read, dear.
quote:
i imagine it used to be matrilocal (families live with their maternal relatives) as well.
i suppose i didn't emphasize how "used to" i meant. i meant before the bible was written down. i think it's possible, even likely, that the jews started as matrilineal/matrilocal and then evolved due to outside influence. they simply kept the heritage bit out of habit.
note my statement here...
quote:
some of the importance of this seems to have been lost on the actual writers of the bible
i'm just saying that the writers were either making shit up, or they had forgotten the earlier connotation of such things. cultures evolve. it's what they do.
nearly every single example i can think of for families in the old testament involve children and even grandchildren living under their father's roof. the women marry into a family, not the men.
and this proves what, precisely? 1. the stories are how accurate? 2. so the culture evolved out of the matrilineal/matrilocal phase... this doesn't change that it's an appropriate interpretation of the verse.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by arachnophilia, posted 06-26-2006 11:55 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by arachnophilia, posted 06-27-2006 12:24 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 54 of 82 (326700)
06-27-2006 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by macaroniandcheese
06-27-2006 12:04 AM


Re: Purpose is Over, But Still Holds
i suppose i didn't emphasize how "used to" i meant. i meant before the bible was written down. i think it's possible, even likely, that the jews started as matrilineal/matrilocal and then evolved due to outside influence. they simply kept the heritage bit out of habit.
i doubt it.
i'm just saying that the writers were either making shit up, or they had forgotten the earlier connotation of such things. cultures evolve. it's what they do.
right, but read the way you guys are reading it, it's a very, very out of place reference. and anyways, the next chapter -- part of the SAME source document -- explains subjugation of women. i don't see this as an accidental inclusion that hints at an earlier form of society.
i think a more sensible reading is that it doesn't even treat women as people. the man leaves his mother and father -- and starts his own family. the woman is inconsequential, so there's no need to mention her family. she was just property to them anyways.
and this proves what, precisely? 1. the stories are how accurate?
no, but the context and content do tell us something about the society that wrote them, and women were bartered over, as property. the only time in all of the stories where a man lives under his wives' parents roof is as a servant in trade for the wives. not as part of the family.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-27-2006 12:04 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-27-2006 8:22 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 55 of 82 (326744)
06-27-2006 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by macaroniandcheese
06-26-2006 11:43 PM


Re: Purpose is Over, But Still Holds
I fixed the link in Message 28 for the etymology of wife. Thanks
I read Arach's response, but I do feel they may have been more matriarchal in the ancient tribal times. Of course matriarchal doesn't play out the same way patriarchal does. Many of the Native American tribes were matriarchal.
My grandmother responded, “You can be the head, but I will be the neck, and wherever the neck turns, the head has to follow.”
I have "The complete Idiot's Guide to Understanding Judaism" by Rabbi Benjamin Blech.
I like this statement made in Chapter 2.
The Midrash takes note of another difference between man and woman: Man was created from the dust of the earth, woman from a bone of Adam. Bone is stronger than earth; an earthenware jar when it falls shatters into may pieces; a vessel of bone remains firm and whole. Woman, concludes the Midrash, is blessed with greater emotional inner strength. A remarkable observation for an ancient text considering that Ashley Montagu, the respected American anthropologist and social biologist, wrote the following in the twentienth century: "Though women are more emotional than men, men are emotionally weaker than women; that is, men break more easily under emotional strain than women do. Women bend more easily, and are more resilient."
This comment I find interesting also.
And when the Talmud wonders why, at the time of Revelation, God told Moses to first "speak to the daughters of Israel" before addresssing the men, and to ask them whether they wished to recieved the Torah, the response is: "Because the way of men is to follow the opinion of women." (Guess the world hasn't changed that much after all in thousands of years!)
The book even addresses Arach comments on the way women were treated.
All of this, of course, doesn't mean that throughout Jewish history women were treated equally or acknowledged for their superior traits. Jews were affected by their environments as well as by the currents of foreign cultures inwhich they lived. Yet, Judaism rather than Jews always taught the nobility of women. It even made it a requirement for every Jewish husband to sing a song of praise to his wife on Sabbath eve extolling her virtes and calling her a "woman of valor."
Just goes to show that what the Bible supposedly says isn't necessarily what is practiced. That's why I disagree with people pulling "laws" from the Bible out of context of the time and actual practice of the religion the law belongs to.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-26-2006 11:43 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-27-2006 8:45 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 06-27-2006 10:34 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 56 of 82 (326745)
06-27-2006 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by arachnophilia
06-27-2006 12:24 AM


Re: Purpose is Over, But Still Holds
note. matrilineal doesn't mean matriarchal.
but you know as well as i how many out of place sentences there are in the bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by arachnophilia, posted 06-27-2006 12:24 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by arachnophilia, posted 07-03-2006 9:00 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 57 of 82 (326750)
06-27-2006 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by purpledawn
06-27-2006 8:18 AM


Re: Purpose is Over, But Still Holds
thanks for the link. it's very obvious that our understanding of the word wife to mean 'metaphysically linked partner of equal status deserving or love, cherishing, and so forth' is very, very new. anyone know when those vows were written? they were in the common book of prayer approved by henry number the 8. so, at the very earliest, our marriages date from the 15th century. however, they hardly had the same idea of marriage that we do. before then, it gets more and more different. sure, people fell in love before then. but only the ridiculously rich and powerful managed to actually marry those they loved. take even in the bible. david and solomon both appear to have wives they absolutely adored... but they were after the marriages to their other dozen wives. the simple fact that polygyny was so very commonplace tells you that their marriage contract was different than ours. they had more than one wife, so they couldn't possibly become one flesh in the mystical sense with all of them, could they? do the other wives become one flesh with each other? the purpose of the union was procreation and without such, there was no union. therefore it seems to me a very simple suggestion that the "one flesh" refers to the results of a good deep dicking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by purpledawn, posted 06-27-2006 8:18 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by purpledawn, posted 07-02-2006 5:07 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 58 of 82 (326782)
06-27-2006 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by purpledawn
06-27-2006 8:18 AM


Re: Purpose is Over, But Still Holds
purpledawn writes:
... I do feel they may have been more matriarchal in the ancient tribal times.
I have often wondered about some of those stories about the "patriarchs".
Isaac was Abraham's heir, but he was Sarah's firstborn, not Abraham's.
And it was Rebekah who chose which of her twins would have the birthright. It's true that she had to resort to a ruse to get the decision past the patriarch - but what I find interesting is that God approved the decision. Jacob became the father of God's chosen people, so Rebekah's choice must have been the right one.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by purpledawn, posted 06-27-2006 8:18 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 59 of 82 (328321)
07-02-2006 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by macaroniandcheese
06-27-2006 8:45 AM


Re: Purpose is Over, But Still Holds
I tried to find more on the History of Wedding Vows but haven't come across much besides the link. I think they would much rather sell me a book.
In the early history of wedding vows, this commitment was not necessarily between two people, but between a person and an entire village. In ancient times, people drew together to find safety in numbers. The very first wedding vows in history were most likely a symbol of a newcomer’s commitment to watch over and protect a tribe or group, in exchange for their protection as well. Even as late in the history of wedding vows as the Middle Ages, marriages were considered more an affiliation between families than a symbol of romantic love.
quote:
the simple fact that polygyny was so very commonplace tells you that their marriage contract was different than ours. they had more than one wife, so they couldn't possibly become one flesh in the mystical sense with all of them, could they?
That's why I don't think the term "one flesh" refers to the act of marriage or love and commitment between two people.
Some Jewish sources consider the one flesh to be a child. The man and woman cleave together (sex) and the result is one flesh (child). It is a creative way to say that man needs a woman to have a child and not those other animals that Adam was checking out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-27-2006 8:45 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 60 of 82 (328324)
07-02-2006 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by mjfloresta
06-21-2006 5:59 PM


Bump for mjfloresta
Message 48
I understand why most of the OT laws are obsolete and how we (United States) have matured past the need for death sentences (except in extreme murder cases), but I don't understand why Christians need to dredge up the ruling against male homosexuals.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by mjfloresta, posted 06-21-2006 5:59 PM mjfloresta has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024