Jesus and evil

I would tend to speculate that Hitlers passionate hatred of the Jewish people would point to a satanic influence. I am not dismissing the very real psychological problems that he had, but the Nazi brass dabbled in the occult, thought themselves to be gods, and showed no lack of a proof that the devil was in the details. That is, if such activity can be proven. No argument, here. If Satan and evil exist, what better place to set up shop than in church folk with high positions of influence. To participate in the human condition, thus negating any potential accusations that God "did not understand" us. Also, its akin to why a person can't just take a test to get a college degree. You have to do the work. God did the work.

Phatboy Are you saying that god was christ because I believe the new testament disputes that?

Yes, sidelined. There is a whole other topic, but as much of a case can be made that God was Christ and Christ is alive as can be made otherwise. We have already discussed that in other threads, but my position is that Jesus is God incarnate.
What does it mean to give up your son? What does a son mean to you? A future? How would God give up a future? This is a mystery....John 3:16 is deeper than it appears.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-06-2004 01:39 PM

Ofcourse, all evil is evil, yes. Yet you ask if Christ's suffering is a lesser evil? Which is it to be then? Do you want me to say, "Christ suffered, but not that much evil came upon him, I've seen a bigger evil on others"?So even you can see that there is a difference between acts of evil, yet they are evil. For example, if I hit my brother in anger, then I feel overwhelming regret, was I led by satan? How can I know for sure? Nevertheless, I still know that evil is of satan, and/or from him and his demons. For if I get even angry with my brother I'm in danger of the commandment "do no murder". So, if I continued to seek angry activity against any given foe - satan might start to "notice" me as a potential source of spiritual input. Read Phatboy's comments about spiritual reality.I might argue that if I slapped my brother, it was not a necessity amongst satan's demons, for there to be a spiritual outcry for this act. But rather - the slaying of millions might be more "up there" on satan's "things to do" list.

Phatboy Then why does Christ make this statement.

Because GOD, when Christ, was human with all the limitations and weaknesses of humankind. That does not mean he is not GOD.But when you run down these offshoots trying to nitpick, is there really a purpose?Christians believe in a unity of the trinity. It is beyond reason, and article of faith.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

MTWI am sorry for being dense here but how do you differentiate between an act that is your own responsibilty and that which is an influence of satan without sounding like you are trying to excuse yourself from the responsibilty of your actions for which you may feel ashamed?How do you propose satan influences you?

Oh no, this isn't me justifying evil actions - no. Remember, if all have sin, and only one is good, God, then obviously I am evil also. And so, if I did an evil act, it would be me doing it, but we know that satan has interests in the world. I am sure that we must "submitt" to the evil. For example, if one had murderous thoughts, and sadistic inclinations, and that person "went" out with these thoughts on his mind, has he not taken steps? Remember, I aid that if the ground is fit for seeding, satan will seed it. It might be both. I can't differentiate, I wouldn't even know it.God warns for example, to not get drunken, and just look how angry people get when they are drunk. This alone is a physical thing, yet God for example, could cure you of your desire to drink, thus removing satan's seeds.

Jesus was modeling the behavior that He expects us to exhibit. If, today, a man ran into a church and said "Brother Benny Hinn, heal me!"
Benny should as a teacher show this man that it is not Benny who can help him. It is God and it is Gods Spirit. Jesus did not want the man to deify the human character. Today, many people deify human ministers and you can almost see the deception. Hinn is claimed to be a fraud by many, but we can discuss that later. The point is Jesus and His role. By being subordinate to His own Father, Jesus did for us what we as humans were unable to do. Again, this is a whole other topic, but let me ask you why it is a problem to equate Jesus with God?
1)Polytheism? Nope. One Spirit, One God.
2)Is it Christian? Most Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Protestant teaching ascribes to it.
So....do you have a problem with it? Or do you want to go through the scrips one at a time? There is a case on either side, sidelined. I believe in One God manifested in three ways. I know that this was for Mike, but I want to add 2 cents....The awareness of personal responsibility is different for a believer and a non believer, for a believer has allowed the Spirit of Truth into their consciousness and are thus responsible for obedience. Satan as a spirit cannot make you do anything, but he can entice you into deciding to follow your senses. I know it sounds ridiculous in some ways! People down South will eat a piece of pie and exclaim how that devil made them do it! Sadly, some murder defenses say the same thing. There is a fine line between spiritual oppression, mental health, and common sense. Psychologists and Psychiatrists do not understand the spiritual dynamics, nor do theologians understand the mental health issues...So I would say that to understand the difference is done on a case by case basis and is at best an educated guess on both sides.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-06-2004 05:55 PM

Phatboy The problem is not mine,christ himself seperated himself from god by this statement. Jesus states that he is not good and that only god is so the words themselves as recorded by the bible are the point of contention not any opinion of mine. But there was nothing in the question that the person asked showing this to be his concern. The person wanted to know what needed to be done to recieve eternal life.He scolded the man for calling him good master and nothing in that statement seems to support what you are saying.

Jesus pointed out that He was only a man and that the source of goodness was God. Jesus is equal to the Father in terms of His divine nature, yet subordinate in His role in redemption. An early heresy that the church rejected was the monophysite heresy. This heresy argued that Jesus did not have two natures but one. Jesus was fully human and fully divine.
Copts and Orthodoxy Today, the three main branches of Christianity reject this heresy, with only the gnostic and coptic offshoots embracing it. But it appears that the man was asking what he was doing wrong since he saw himself as good,also. The answer was that it does not matter how "good" an individual is, it matters how good God is. We must lose our life in order to find it. We must lay down our ego and allow His Spirit in to us. Jesus is not God in an idolatrous sense...we worship no man. Jesus is God in the sense that relationship with Jesus is the key to understanding God. You cannot understand God through mere philosophy. You can only understand God through acceptance of how God found a way to accept us by substituting His Son.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-07-2004 10:55 AM

I guess that the issue boils down to how we are to interpret Jesus Christ. I am in agreement with Trinitarian doctorine. The Westminister Confession is in line with what I believe. The Nicene Creed is also. Of course, old chap, we COULD go into a verse by verse Bible study....it may be interesting as to how each verse is interpreted by us. Will we agree?

Phatboy In the verse he says nothing about whether he is a man or not.If he was only a man then are we humans then equal to Jesus in divine nature? Why or why not?If your last question in post #27 is directed at me {I couldn't tell since you posted it it as a reply to yourself LOL} I would be willing to do so but perhaps via e-mail would be better since we may end up bouncing back and forth too much to maintain a single topic line on this forum.

Sounds like polythesim to me.

It wasn't that Jesus death was so horrible that gives forgiveness of sin-- its that Jesus didnt sin-- consequently making him a perfect sacrifice=== he did not have to die cause he didnt sin-- his death and blood paid for the sin debt of anyone that comes to him for forgiveness