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Author Topic:   What and Where are the Terms of the New Covenant?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 1 of 94 (111430)
05-29-2004 9:52 AM


I completed a precept Bible Study on the covenants.
The covenants, defined as contracts in the study, in the OT listed what was expected of each side in the agreement (i.e. Abraham and God, Moses and God, Israel and God etc.). It also told the length of the contract. The parties involved knew what they were agreeing to.
Unfortunately when we got to the NT, the study lost its focus. This study did not bring out terms of the new covenant, that Jesus supposedly ushered in, as precisely as the OT covenants. (The book of Luke is the only gospel, I noticed, that called the covenant new) The study referred back to the new covenant reference in Jeremiah, but the study didn’t show where these terms were spoken by Jesus or who agreed to them.
The other reference used is the book of Hebrews, which I have a problem with because it is not quoting Jesus and the author is unknown. (Non-Christians: Yes I know the gospel authors are unknown also, but they are the books that carry the quotes of Jesus and necessary for the question I’m asking.)
I’ve noticed in several threads, comments containing the phrase under the new covenant ..
I would like learned people who have actually read and studied the Christian Bible, to point out to me where the terms of the new covenant are spoken by Jesus (not Paul or an unknown author) and what the terms are and who verbally agreed to those terms.
I don’t want dogma and tradition (DT). I got enough of that during the Bible study. I truly want to know what Jesus said in black and white or red and white depending on your Bible.
What and where are the terms of the new covenant spelled out by Jesus?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

Replies to this message:
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Message 2 of 94 (111453)
05-29-2004 12:03 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 3 of 94 (111765)
05-31-2004 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
05-29-2004 9:52 AM


Example: Noah
God to Noah
Genesis 6:18 I will establish my covenant with you
God to Noah
Genesis 9:8 I now establish my covenant with you and your descendants after you
What God won’t do again.
Genesis 9:11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood
A sign
Genesis 9:12-13 This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come. I have set my rainbow
In this covenant no requirements are required from the creatures or mankind and the covenant is forever. Easy to see the parts of the contract.
I don’t see the same detail in the NT for the new covenant.
Was a new covenant actually presented by Jesus?
If yes, where are the conditions stated?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 05-29-2004 9:52 AM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 5 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-31-2004 8:12 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 4 of 94 (111916)
05-31-2004 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by purpledawn
05-31-2004 9:08 AM


Re: Example: Noah
Wherever Jesus says "believe in Me" or any variation of this option IS the terms of the New Covenant.
What is the gospel ?
If you thought Jesus was you are wrong !
Gospel means "good news" and the good news is HOW one obtains Jesus - nothing else.
God will accept faith in place of the O.T. way of allegiance to a code of conduct as the new and exclusive way to relate to Him now.
The New Covenant is Galatians 2:20
Galatians 2
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
This, by the way, is the defintion of a true christian.
Jesus, in the gospels, continually contrasted two roads: Perfectionist law keeping OR "believe in Him".
The second alternative is the New Covenant - the gospel/way of faith.
According to Paul in Galatians (chosen by Jesus on the Damascus Road) Mosaic Law was intended to show us that we cannot do it and to drive us to the one thing we can do: Have Faith in Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 5 of 94 (111919)
05-31-2004 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by purpledawn
05-31-2004 9:08 AM


Hebrews 10 :
16"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,"[3] 17then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful

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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 6 of 94 (111977)
06-01-2004 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Cold Foreign Object
05-31-2004 8:12 PM


New Covenant
quote:
Hebrews 10 :
16"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,"
What laws will be put into our hearts and our minds?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

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 Message 5 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-31-2004 8:12 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 7 of 94 (112012)
06-01-2004 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
05-29-2004 9:52 AM


Example 2: Moses
Exodus 24:7-8 (terms)
Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, "We will do everything the Lord has said; we will obey." Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, "This is the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words."
Deut 29:12-14 (duration)
You are standing here in order to enter into a covenant with the Lord your God as he promised you and as he swore to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I am making this covenant, with its oath, not only with you who are standing here with us today in the presence of the Lord our God but also with those who are not here today.
This is just an example of what I'm looking for.
In the NT Jesus doesn't clearly lay out the terms of a new covenant so that people know what they are getting into.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 06-01-2004 11:06 AM purpledawn has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 94 (112035)
06-01-2004 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by purpledawn
06-01-2004 9:27 AM


Re: Example 2: Moses
PD
JMHO & YMMV
For me the basic Covenant in the New Testament revolves around Jesus reduction of the vast host of Laws in the OT to two, and in the fact that the Covenant is in reality, Bilateral.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
There is no contract as seen in the OT.
The OT contract is between GOD and a people. It seperates that People from all others. The Covenant in the NT however is between God and the individual, a personal relationship. It is not with a people, it is not with a place, it is not even with a religion or sect.
As I read John 3:16, it says quite clearly that if you believe in GOD (some Christians try to make the word HIM in the verse point only to Jesus, but that falls apart unless Jesus is a seperate entity than GOD), then you will have everlasting life.
So, you will not find the mass meeting, the voting, the sign on the dotted line Covenant in the NT. It is simply not required. The NT Covenant is between YOU, the very individual YOU, and GOD. If you believe in GOD, then you fulfill your side of the contract.
The LAWs mentioned in the NT boil down to two. The first is what is needed for you to fulfill your half of the Covenant, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God". The second is how you should lead your life and exist in the kinship of man, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself".

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by purpledawn, posted 06-01-2004 3:32 PM jar has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 9 of 94 (112106)
06-01-2004 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
06-01-2004 11:06 AM


New Testament
quote:
For me the basic Covenant in the New Testament revolves around Jesus reduction of the vast host of Laws in the OT to two.
The LAWs mentioned in the NT boil down to two. The first is what is needed for you to fulfill your half of the Covenant, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God". The second is how you should lead your life and exist in the kinship of man, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself".
Mark 12:28-31
One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all ?" Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord your God is one lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
Matthew 22:36-40
Luke 10:26-28
In saying that these are foremost and no other is greater, I don't see how this reduces or negates the rest of the laws. This wasn't a new teaching.
Lev 19:18 Love neighbor as self..
Deut 6:5 Love God with all your heart...
quote:
Hillel
To a pagan who said he would become a Jew if he could be taught the Torah while standing on one foot, Hillel is said to have replied, "What is hateful to you, do not unto your neighbor: this is the entire Torah. (A History of the Jews, by Paul Johnson)
Our own legal system could be summarized the same way, but it doesn't reduce the number of laws.
Hillel was known for his more humane and universalistic interpretation of the Torah. Hillel was a contemporary of Shammai (c. 50BCE - c. 30CE)
quote:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And yet Matthew 19:16, Luke 10:25 and Mark have a few more requirements.
quote:
Mark 10:17
As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
Mark 10:19
"You know the commandments, 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, do not defraud, honor your mother and father.' "
If the "Him" in 3:16 is God, then weren't the Jews already believing? Can you love God with all your heart etc., if you don't believe in him?
So could the "New Covenant" really be a summary of the old and not a replacement? More of a renewal and not really different.
BTW what is YMMV?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 06-01-2004 11:06 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 06-01-2004 3:38 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 11 by Abshalom, posted 06-01-2004 3:49 PM purpledawn has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 94 (112107)
06-01-2004 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by purpledawn
06-01-2004 3:32 PM


Re: New Testament
So could the "New Covenant" really be a summary of the old and not a replacement? More of a renewal and not really different.
IMHO it is more a simplification. If you look at the examples you mention, each fits nicely into the two great commandments. It is saying, listen, if you just stick to these two basics you will do just fine with GOD, with yourself and with your fellow man.
And Your Mileage May Vary.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by purpledawn, posted 06-01-2004 3:32 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 94 (112109)
06-01-2004 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by purpledawn
06-01-2004 3:32 PM


Re: New Covenant?
Matthew 5: The Fulfillment of the Law
(17) "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
(18) I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
(19) Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(20) For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
Is this the "Covenant" you're looking for?
Peace. Ab.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by purpledawn, posted 06-01-2004 3:32 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by purpledawn, posted 06-01-2004 7:33 PM Abshalom has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 12 of 94 (112196)
06-01-2004 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Abshalom
06-01-2004 3:49 PM


Re: New Covenant?
quote:
Is this the "Covenant" you're looking for?
Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
I don't know.
That's what disappointed me about the class. They went to such pains to make us understand that a covenant is a contract and that in those days it was consecrated by blood.
They stressed the end of the Mosaic Covenant and the start of the New Covenant, but couldn't define the conditions of the new covenant.
Of course the above scripture is a favorite, but it doesn't make sense. Even today, if I fulfill a law (guideline, suggestion, etc.), it means I have done it correctly. It doesn't mean that it now ends once I have completed the task. The law is still there. (I pay my taxes by April 15. I fulfilled that law, but I have to do it again next year.)
From what I have found in Judaism the term to abolish the Torah means to interpret it incorrectly and to fulfill it is to interpret it correctly.
The Mosaic Covenant didn't show an end date. If the new covenant is something different than the Mosaic, then I feel there should be some record in the NT describing the new terms.
Maybe I was expecting too much.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Abshalom, posted 06-01-2004 3:49 PM Abshalom has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Abshalom, posted 06-02-2004 12:32 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 13 of 94 (112198)
06-01-2004 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
06-01-2004 3:38 PM


Re: New Testament
YMMV, cute!
When I first signed up it took a bit before I grasped the IMO, IMHO, JMHO, etc.
Thanks for clarifying.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 06-01-2004 3:38 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 94 (112200)
06-01-2004 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by purpledawn
06-01-2004 7:39 PM


Re: New Testament
RTFM IIRC TTBOMK it is all covered there.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 94 (112402)
06-02-2004 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by purpledawn
06-01-2004 7:33 PM


Re: New Covenant?
Purple:
Personally, I think the entire post-Temple "Christian" movement was a revolutionary movement in reaction to Pharisiacal/Rabbinical Judaism; and that there is no specific "Contract" between the parties to the agreement, rather the terms continue to evolve at the whimsy of the "Church."
On the otherhand, Rabbinical Judaism seems to have gone overboard as well by exponentially expanding the "Contract" with all that "Oral" Torah, plus a plethora of "Tradition," that certainly did not exist in pre-Temple Judaism ... at least not according to the Sadducees.
Hillel changed the terms of the Contract with all kinds of twists of legalese that tempered the strictness of the Law. But then again, Maimonides subsequently determined that there are 613 Commandments made a part of the Contract as dictated in the 40 years from Sinai to the Jordan.
It's easy to understand how the revolutionaries wanted a simplified Contract. Simple folks have simple ways.
Peace. Ab.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by purpledawn, posted 06-01-2004 7:33 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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