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Author Topic:   Would you give up your place in heaven...
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5615 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 61 of 113 (475265)
07-14-2008 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
01-30-2008 10:00 AM


Re: Sounds like a bargain but....
iano writes:
No.
My reason for not doing so involves my respecting their hearts desire - just as God will have done in consigning them to Hell. There will be no one in Hell who didn’t choose (in effect) to go there.
What??? If hell is real, it is gonna be filled with people who like me simply don't believe in hell for different reasons like lack of evidence (for starters). It cannot be said that these people are there because they chose to be there.
iano writes:
According to God’s standard, all people are steeped to the neck in the filth of sin - from the most “moral” to the least.
if this is true, so what? Its his responsability anyways for creating us like this. He supposedly can see the future and still proceeded with his plans. All I'm saying is; Is it really our fault or are we caught in some madman's matrix with everything to lose. I can only wonder
Edited by Itachi Uchiha, : htlm code

With my eyes there's nothing you can do that I can't see through.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by iano, posted 01-30-2008 10:00 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by iano, posted 07-14-2008 1:21 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5615 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 63 of 113 (475294)
07-14-2008 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by iano
07-14-2008 1:21 PM


Re: Sounds like a bargain but....
iano writes:
Suppose for a moment that God is actively trying to persuade you - not of his existance - but of something for which you have tangible evidence, then it is possible for you to act in such a way as to refuse to be persuaded by that evidence. By ducking and weaving and preventing the evidence building up to to extent of an iron-clad case you will have chosen not to be persuaded.
This does not make any sense to me for the following:
1) I don't have to persuaded for anything to which tangible evidence is available. No divine being has to go through the trouble of convincing me that water is real for example.
2) I don't find in me the ability to refuse to be persuaded over things that are real. As much as I hate it, I can't deny the existence of oatmeal.
iano writes:
The responsibility for man being in the state he is in, is mans, not God's. God is responsible for creating a being with the potential for being responsible for the state he got and gets himself into.
Before this can be taken any further, I need to know if you believe in predestination in the same sense that Paul puts it the book of Ephesians(if im not mistaken) when he says that we were chosen before the foundation of the world.
Edited by Itachi Uchiha, : fixing html code

Mangekyo Sharingan. Youre trapped in my genjutsu now!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by iano, posted 07-14-2008 1:21 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by iano, posted 07-15-2008 5:30 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5615 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 65 of 113 (475573)
07-16-2008 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by iano
07-15-2008 5:30 AM


Re: Sounds like a bargain but....
This is probably starting to get off topic and becoming a never ending discussion but, lets continue till the admins close it.
iano writes:
You can refuse to open your eyes to the truth of oil and persist in the notion that that warm liquid is water. You would be doing what the Bible says those who will perish do: they refuse to love (or to put it another way; suppress arrival at) the truth.
In theory and in paper, this sounds like a good analogy. Now, can you give me a good practical, everyday example of situations when we feel it's water but it is in fact oil? This analogy can be used against you. What if it is you the one who is because of your faith(binding you), feeling oil when the true liquid is water?
iano writes:
Thoughts are real, are they not? They are not tangible in the sense that oatmeal is though. So much for empiricism as a full and final means to arrive at what's true.
Thoughts are real when they are looked at for what they are; chemical reactions in your brain. If you imagine a chair for example, the thought that provides your brain with an image of the chair through the different processes in your brain is real, not the chair you are imagining. A line must be drawn between what is real and what is imaginary.
iano writes:
Different folk have different takes on Paul means. He speaks elsewhere (in Romans 8) about predestining being something God does to people that he foreknows. If God foreknows you then he predestines you. If he predestines you he calls you. If called, you'll be justfied and glorified. Foreknowing is first in the queue - with all else happening automatically once that first domino is tipped over.
So... Can i take this as a yes, that you believe in predestination?
iano writes:
"Before the creation of the world" there was no time (let's suppose). In which case God chose me in the eternal realm. But the eternal realm also exists after the world, and time, has been wrapped up. We might thus consider this world and this time as a realm contained within a 'bubble' around which exists the greater timeless eternal realm.
All of which means he chose me in the same realm that exist after the world will come to an end. Meaning he can chose me on the basis of my response to him in this world. And thus predestine me to be transferred to his kingdom before the world began
To sum up: my own view is that everyone gets to chose (in effect) their eternal destination. God knows their choices eternally, that is: before they've made it - because he is simultaneously present after they've made it. And he predestines those who (effectively) choose for him to be subjected to the process of salvation that transfers them from the kingdom of darkeness into the kingdom of light. Foreknown (because they are known afterwards), predestined to be called, called as a result, justified (made righteous in Gods eyes), glorified.
Hmm. I respect your opinion/faith but I find this to be speculation. And speculation, cannot be debated. Theres no evidence that can possibly take you to this kind of theory. You can pull out the "bible says it so it must be true" card but that will only make me conclude that the author was speculating as well. You''ll need to start making a case for the existence of a soul and that it is inmortal or eternal and still you'll have all your work ahead of you to come up with something like the opinion you stated here.
Edited by Itachi Uchiha, : grammar

With my eyes there's nothing you can do that I can't see through.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by iano, posted 07-15-2008 5:30 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by iano, posted 07-17-2008 5:13 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

  
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