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Author Topic:   "The OT...contains all accepted moral laws" - calling out IamJoseph
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1748 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 16 of 30 (445426)
01-02-2008 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by macaroniandcheese
01-02-2008 10:27 AM


HOW'S YOUR HISTORY KNOWLEDGE?
quote:
henotheism: the worship of one god without denying the existence of other gods.

You mean like this:

'I AM THE LORD THERE IS NO OTHER', and 'THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME' - you omitted to mention? Funny, you also ignored why Israel was exiled to the European continent too: because they refused to worship another deity of mighty Rome. Let's continue this denial game and change history: let's accuse the first Monotheists of being non-monotheists, and let's create a new, better history. Israel is bad if she rejects or accepts any and every diety, and is a lier if she says no or yes to the contradicting charges - would that please?

For those interested in factual, historical proof of biblical writings, or of ancient history, they won't find any equivalent or comparable proof in existence anywhere else than that of Israel.

Included in this newly compiled issue, are proofs of such figures as Isaiah, Jeremia, Ezra, David, Solomon, the Persian King Cyrus granting Israel her return to rebuild the destroyed Jerusalem temple, in his own words, his triumph over the Babylonian King Nebuchadnazer, and the Assyrian Sennacherib from Ninevah of the Johan story - presented with cross reference contemporary accounts of the other nations, and its corresponding Bible texts, dating upto 3,400 years ago.

Ironically, the most vindicated scripture of all, is in today's most advanced age, targeted as being the singularly most denied writings of all. This list is a sobering realisation to all the charges of myths & falsehoods levied against Israel, a nation which is battling against blatant historical and scientific falsehoods - and losing the battle while equipped with the greatest of proofs. Obviously, the world prefers a desired lie than a disdained truth. But where and what will such falsehoods lead to for its perpertrators and accepters: salvation and 70 vestal virgins - NWO?

quote:

MESSAGES FROM HISTORY - MESSAGES FROM ISRAEL

A Time to Speak is a periodic message from Israel, centering on a theme that relates to Israel, past and present. The contents may include history, background, current events, analysis, comment, and excerpts from published writings.

Readers may quote, reproduce, re-circulate, or post material from A Time To Speak. It is requested that wording not be altered, and that the source be cited.

A TIME TO SPEAK
Vol. VII:5 (No. 69)
December 2007 – Kislev-Tevet 5768

THESE RECORDS ARE FROM ANCIENT TIMES
-- 1 Chronicles 4:21-23

Some of those openly bent on the destruction of the present-day State of Israel allege that it has no historic roots in the Land of Israel – the Land they identify by the faux-name "Palestine" [on "Palestine" see further Issue 2]. One version of this line is that there never was any ancient Israelite/Judaean nation in this Land. A slightly modified version, perhaps geared to some slightly less gullible audience, is that maybe there was, but contemporary Jews are not descended from that long gone nation, and therefore have no claim on its Land.

A special tenet of this credo, is that Jerusalem was never holy to Jews, and there was never a Jewish Temple on Temple Mount. A former Arab Mufti of Jerusalem recently explained that the Western Wall where Jews pray is really part of a mosque, and gave assurance that when Temple Mount comes under Muslim sovereignty no Jews will be to pray at this mosque.

[Comment: Despite such denial of any ancient Israelite-Jewish presence on Temple Mount, the Muslim Waqf, that Israeli governments since 1967 have unaccountably permitted to hold control of Temple Mount, uses bulldozers to destroy Jewish and Christian remnants and relics that supposedly were never there. Israeli governments even more unaccountably do not interfere.]

In this campaign of mis-information the Arabs and other Muslims have acquired a curious ally: A school of Bible Scholars that specializes in discrediting and dismissing the Bible and all the history preserved therein.

As will be seen below, evidence within the Bible, and even outside of Israel and Judah and the Bible, establish that the people of Israel lived, had nations in Israel and Judah, and Jerusalem was the city of their heart.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

"Some ideas are so preposterous, that only an intellectual can entertain them."
-- George Orwell

There has been biblical scholarship for almost as long as there has been a Bible, and it is indeed an inexhaustible subject for study, interpretation, and analysis. For centuries, this meant the study of the biblical text itself. In modern times, as knowledge emerged about the histories and cultures of other peoples of the biblical age, those too became subject of study about the Bible. Modern archaeology in Israel and surrounding areas adds texts, relics, and artifacts of the biblical age, that can illustrate and be correlated with the text of the Bible.

Only recently has there arisen an entirely new view of biblical scholarship, generally known as Minimalism. Its principle is that nothing in the biblical text can be given credence unless it is confirmed by archaeological remains. That means that if the required material remains have not survived the past few millennia, or if no excavator's spade as yet hit upon them, then the written text of the Bible does not count as a valid source. It is dismissed as mere "story."

The biblical writers studied extant records of the Children of Israel, and selected the material that fit their special interest – often citing sources where readers could find other material. These writers are now disqualified on the grounds that endeavors were "ideological." Indeed they were, and the ideology was Ethical Monotheism.

[COMMENT: It is questionable that this standard of scholarship would be applied to the history of classical Greece, with the demand that it be known only from archaeological relics, and its historical writings be dismissed as mere "story."]

Minimalist scholars who are rigidly demanding of archaeological proof for the biblical history of ancient Israel are more indulgent of fancy when they produce their own substitutions for that discarded history on the basis of no evidence at all.

At the same, time, they go against a basic principle of all serious research: "Absence of proof is not proof of absence." For example, it is said that Jerusalem in the time of David and Solomon could not have been a city of any significance because it has not (thus far) yielded written the kind of royal archives found in some ancient cities. This argument overlooks a salient distinction: Those other cities have been abandoned ruins for millennia past, where artifacts could survive undisturbed and archaeologists can dig wherever they please. Jerusalem has during those millennia been repeatedly destroyed and rebuilt, with consequent loss of material relics, and is today too full of people and buildings to leave much space for digging. So when the question is posed "If there was an historical King David, where are his archives?" the answer could just possibly be "Underneath the swimming pool of the King David Hotel."

Scholars who go even further – who will here be dubbed Nullists – assert that ancient biblical Israel never existed at all, and that the entire Bible is a hoax concocted around the fifth-third century BCE. The purpose of this fraud was to deceive a foreign ruler into thinking that some bunch of people who called themselves Jews that a particular land they wanted for themselves had once been their homeland.

This conclusion requires the proponents to suppose that thirty-nine books, from Genesis through II Chronicles, including some 1,500 years of national history, a complex code of religious and civil law, prophets, psalms, proverbs, wisdom literature, poetry and narratives, with the intricate cross-references among the books, were all forged within a short period of time.

The Nullists are not certain whether the foreign ruler was a Persian or a Greek, but seem to assume that he knew how to read and understand Hebrew, and would have the patience to peruse this entire corpus of text.

These endeavors are problematic and controversial, but within the range of academic and intellectual freedom. Minimalism and its more extreme offspring Nullism might be merely academic fads, debated within a small circle of colleagues. However, the movement does not stop there. It is carried onto the contemporary international stage with the argument that since ancient Israel never existed and the Bible is a fraud, there is no reason why modern Israel should exist. Since the bunch of people who call themselves Jews never had a nation in "Palestine," then they have no right to have one there now.

What presents itself as "scholarship" then becomes a prop for the propaganda of Israel's mortal enemies who proclaim that Israel and the Jewish people have no roots, or history, or rights in Palestine, that Jerusalem was never an Israelite/Jewish city, and there was never a Temple on Temple Mount.

The Nullists, with their professorial credentials, provide support for those who proclaim this doctrine for their own advantage. It can provide justification to powers and interests that want to diminish Israel and appease jihadis.

As colleges, universities, and other institutions progressively discard such obsolete values as knowledge, facts, and logic, Nullism has become respectable. A professor who professes it can be granted tenure to pass it on to inexperienced students who will then take it with them into the outside world and into the positions of influence they may hold in years to come.

* * * * * * * * * * * *
The Minimalist/Nullist doctrine that the Bible does not record real history is contradicted by the very archaeological artifacts and ancient archives in which they place their faith. There is indeed a plethora of such "proof," both in archaeological remains and written records from the lands that were neighbors of biblical Israel.

For those who do not seek or need the kind of "proof" demanded by Minimalism/Nullism, these sources may nevertheless be of interest because they show Israelite history in its regional setting – a setting of often larger and stronger nations and societies that are now long vanished, while Israel alone is still living and vibrant,

The ancient Israelites were very conscious of their identity, and kept careful records of their own history and doings. These records are not now extant, but they are cited in the Five Books of Moses, and also in the histories of I and II Kings and I and II Chronicles. Even with the loss of the earliest written sources, much is preserved about the Children of Israel, and the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

There are also embedded references to personages and doings in neighboring lands. By the Persian or Greek age, many centuries later, some of those personages and doings could not have been known from any source other than the Bible itself – that allegedly had not yet been written.

Only in the nineteenth century CE did Western archaeologists and scholars begin to reconstruct the history of the Near East in the biblical period, excavate its relics and decipher its documents and inscriptions. In so doing, they found much material that correlates with and at times illustrates texts in the Bible, and thereby establishes both the antiquity and the authenticity of those texts.

The following examples relate to only a few people and events in biblical history, but they are sufficient to establish that the biblical writers were knowledgeable both about their own people and about their neighbors. They also establish that those neighbors knew of and interacted with the Children of Israel.

I. The Merneptah Stele, with a text written by the Egyptian Pharaoh Merneptah in about 1220 BCE, tells of his incursion into Canaan, where he attacked a people called "Israel." He boasts that that thanks to him "Israel is desolate, his seed is not."

II. he Bible (Numbers 22-25, Joshua 24:10, Micah 6:5, Nehemiah 13:2) recalls the sayings and doings of Balaam son of Peor, a soothsayer from a land near the Euphrates River.

An inscription from early first millennium BCE, discovered in Jordan in 1967, recalls "Balaam son of Peor" as a prominent soothsayer of an earlier time.

III. The Bible (I Kings 16:15-29) records the reign of Omri, King of Israel (886-874), and speaks of "the might that he showed."

The Annals of Assyria, from his time onward refer to the Northern Kingdom of Israel as "Omri-Land."

IV. The Bible (I Kings 16-22, II Chronicles 18) records the reign of King Ahab of Israel (c. 874-853 BCE).

The Assyrian Monolith Inscription, whose text was dictated by King Shalmaneser III of Assyria in about 850 BCE, lists the names of kings who formed a league to defend their realms against his attacks. Prominent among them is "Ahab the Israelite," who sent into the battle a formidable force of 10,000 infantry and 2,000 war-chariots.

V. The Bible (I Kings 22:39) in its record of King Ahab's reign refers to "the ivory house that he built."

Archeological excavations at the ruins of Samaria, Ahab's capital city, uncovered ruins of the royal house of his period. Scattered throughout it were hundreds of pieces of ivory furniture and ivory ornaments.

VI. The Bible (II Kings 3), records that King Mesha of Moab was a vassal of Omri's son King Ahab, and rebelled after the death of Ahab.

The Moabite Stone, dated to circa 840-830 BCE, has an inscription written by a King of Moab: It says "I am Mesha, . . . King of Moab . . . . Omri was King of Israel, and he oppressed Moab many days . . . . And his son [Ahab] reigned in his place, and he also said 'I will oppress Moab' . . . . But I triumphed, and Israel has perished forever."

This inscription was discovered in 1868 CE. Until then, the Bible was the only source for the existence of Mesha.

VII. The Bible (II Kings 8) describes the ambiguous circumstances of the death of King Ben-Hadad of Aram [Syria] and the succession to the throne of Hazael, a commoner who had been in his service.

The Annals of Assyria for this same year records how Ben-Hadad [also called Hadadezer] died in questionable circumstances, and his throne was taken by Hazael, whose geneoliogy was a disdainful "son of nobody."

VIII. The Bible (II Kings II 9) records the reign of Jehu as King of Israel (842-815 BCE).

The Assyrian Black Obelisk lists the rulers and states that sent tribute-gifts to King Shalmaneser III in 841. Among them is "Jehu, son of Omri" [that is, of Omri-land], whose gifts included "silver, gold, a golden bowl, a golden beaker, golden goblets, pitchers of gold . . . ." There is even an illustration of the visiting Israelites delivering these items, including a man who was either Jehu himself or possibly his emissary.

IX. The Bible (II Kings 9, II Chronicles 22) describes how Jehu killed both King Jehoram of Israel and King Ahaziah of Judah.

The Tel-Dan Stele, inscribed with a text written by a King of Aram in the mid-ninth century BCE, tells of the slaying of King Jehoram of Israel and King Ahaziah of Judah, whom it identifies with "the House of David."

After the discovery of this inscription in 1992, some Minimalist/Nullists set out to find – or if necessary invent – an alternative reading or meaning of the word "David," and thereby protect their assertion that there was no evidence that he ever existed.

X. The Bible (II Kings 17:3-6) records how King Hoshea of the Northern Kingdom of Israel (c. 732-722) rejected vassalage to the King of Assyria:
"Against him [Hoshea] came up Shalmaneser king of Assyria; . . .And the king of Assyria found conspiracy in Hoshea for he . . . brought no present to the king of Assyria, as he had done year by year: therefore the king of Assyria shut him up, and bound him in prison. Then the king of Assyria came up throughout all the land, and went up to Samaria, and besieged it three years. In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.
The royal annals of Assyria show that Shalmaneser V died at some time during the three-year-long siege, and his successor Sargon II completed the Assyrian conquest of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and took many of its residents off into exile.

In Sargon's own words: "Samaria I looked at, I captured; 27,280 men who dwelt in it I carried away."

XI. The Bible (II Kings 20:20, II Chronicles 32:2-4) includes among the many accomplishments of King Hezekiah of Judah (c. 715-686 BCE) that "he made the pool and the tunnel by which he brought water into the city."

On the water supply for Jerusalem, there is also this background: "When Hezekiah saw that Sennacherib had come, intent on making war against Jerusalem, he consulted with his officers and warriors about stopping the flow of the springs outside the city, and they supported him. A large force was assembled to stop up all the springs and the wadi that flowed through the land, for otherwise, they thought, the king of Assyria would come and find water in abundance"

This tunnel still exists in Jerusalem, and is open to the public to walk or wade through it. It begins at a spring of fresh water at Gihon, a site that in Hezekiah's time was outside of the wall of Jerusalem, runs underneath that wall, and diverts the water into the Pool of Siloam inside the city. Scientific radio-carbon dating confirms that this water-system was made in the time of Hezekiah.

In 1880, an inscription was found cut into the inside wall of the tunnel, telling how two crews had dug from opposite ends, and the work was completed when they met each other inside the tunnel:
"The tunneling was completed... While the hewers wielded the ax, each man toward his fellow . . . there was heard a man's voice calling to his fellow . . . the hewers hacked each toward the other, ax against ax, and the water flowed from the spring to the pool, a distance of 1,200 cubits . . . . "
The Ottoman Turks, who ruled the city when the inscription was found, cut it out of the wall, and it is now in a museum in Istanbul.

XII. The Bible (II Kings 18-19. II Chronicles 32, Isaiah 36-37) gives long and detailed accounts of how
-- King Sennacherib of Assyria invaded Judah and sent officials to try to secure the surrender of Jerusalem through dire threats and coaxing promises to King Hezekiah and his people
-- Hezekiah – with the counsel of the Isaiah --refused to surrender
-- a disaster in Sennacherib's camp forced him to withdraw from Judah
-- Hezekiah delivered to Sennacherib "three hundred talents of silver and thirty talents of gold."

The Oriental Institute Prism, discovered in the ruins of Nineveh in 1830, is inscribed with a text dictated by Sennacherib himself, c. 700 BCE. In a list of his campaigns, he includes this:

"As for Hezekiah the Judaean [Jew], who did not submit to my yoke, forty-six of his strong, walled cities, . . . I besieged and took them. . . . . [Hezekiah] himself, like a caged bird I shut up in Jerusalem, his royal city. . . . . Hezekiah himself, did send me, later, to Nineveh, my lordly city, together with 30 talents of gold, 800 talents of silver . . . . "

Here is the contemporary testimony of the hostile King of Assyria that in his time Jerusalem was the capital city of a Jewish Kingdom.

XIII. The Bible reports what befell Sennacherib after he retreated from Judah and returned to his capital at Nineveh:
II Kings 9:36-37: "And as he was worshipping in the house of Nisroch his god, Adrammelech and Sharezer his sons smote him with the sword: and they escaped into the land of Ararat [Armenia]. And Esarhaddon his son reigned in his stead."

II Chronicles 32:21: "And when he entered the temple of his own god, some of his own offspring struck him down there with the sword."

Isaiah 37:37-38: "And as he was worshipping in the house of Nisroch his god, that Adrammelech and Sharezer his sons smote him with the sword; and they escaped into the land of Ararat, and Esarhaddon his son reigned in his stead."

Babylonian Chronicle – that recorded events as they happened year by year:
"On the twentieth day of the month Tebet, his son killed King Sennacherib of Assyria, in a rebellion . . . . From the 20th day of month of Tebet until the 2nd day of the month of Adar [comment: a period of about six weeks] there was continuous rebellion in Assyria. On the 18th day of of the month of Adar, Esarhaddon, his son, sat himself on the throne in Assyria."

Inscription of Esarhaddon states that his father had named him crown prince, and this enraged his two older half-brothers. He was away on a military expedition when "my brothers went out of their senses, doing everything that is wicked . . . to take over the kingship," and how he quickly secured the throne for himself.

XIV. Bible (II Kings 24:8, 15-16) tells how King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon deposed one King of Judah and replaced him with another:
"Jehoichin was eighteen years old when he became king and he reigned three months in Jerusalem. . . . At that time the servants of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon marched against Jerusalem, and the city was besieged. He [Nebuchadnezzar] deported Jehoiachin to Babylon . . . And the King of Babylon made Mattaniah, his [Jehoiachin's] father's brother, king in his stead, and changed his name to Zedekiah."

The Babylonian Chronicle gives the exact date:
"In the seventh year [of the reign of Nebucahnezzar], the king . . . besieged the [capital] city of Judah, and on the second day of the month of Adar [March 16, 598 BCE] he seized the city and captured the king. He appointed there a king of his own cboice."

Babylonian administrative records give a tally of the food and wine allotted to Jehoichin and his family living in exile in Babylon, and refer to him as a King of Judah.

XV. The Bible (Jeremiah 34:6-8) tells of the plight of the Kingdom of Judah during the last days of Nebuchadnezzar's second invasion (587 BCE):
"When the king of Babylon's army fought against Jerusalem, and against all the cities of Judah that were left, against Lachish, and against Azekah . . . these fortified cities remained of the cities of Judah."

The Lachish Letters were discovered in 1935, in the burnt-out ruins of the guardpost at the city gate of Lachish. They are written on clay shards, and contain reports sent to the garrison at Lachish from outlying posts. One of them reads: ". . . we are watching for the signals of Lachish, according to all the indications which you gave, sir, for we cannot see [the signal fire of] Azekah."

XVI. The Bible (Jeremiah 39:1) names Nebu-Sarsekim as one of Nebuchadnezzar's chief officers at his second siege of Jerusalem [587 BCE].

The Babylonia Chronicle for the tenth year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar (595 BCE) names Nebo-Sarsekim as one of his high royal officials.

XVII: The Bible records that King Cyrus of Persia, after he conquered Babylon in 539, allowed the Jews carried into exile by King Nebuchadnezzar to return to their homeland, and take with them the precious things that had been looted from their Temple:
II Chronicles 36:22-23: "Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia , The Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying: 'Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath The Lord God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The Lord his God be with him, and let him go up.'"

Ezra 1:1-7 repeats this text, and adds: "Also Cyrus the king brought forth the vessels of the house of The Lord, which Nebuchadnezzar had brought forth out of Jerusalem, and had put them in the house of his gods; Even those did Cyrus king of Persia bring forth by the hand of Mithredath the treasurer and counted them out to Sheshbazzar, the prince [or: governor] of Judah."
________________________________________
The Persian Cyrus Prism bears a text by the King that does not mention Judah by name, but does define the principle on which he permitted exiles to return to their homelands:
"I am Cyrus, King of the World, Great King, Legitimate King, . . . When I entered Babylon as a friend and when I established the seat of the government in the palace of the ruler under jubilation and rejoicing, . . . I gathered all their former inhabitants [exiles from conquered states] and returned them to their habitations. Furthermore, I resettled . . . all the gods . . . . in their former temples, the places which make them happy."

XVIII. Throughout biblical times, the Children of Israel – like other peoples of the region – had personal seals, used to stamp the owner's name on a document or a possession. These were small stones, set in a ring or pierced through to be worn on a cord, engraved with the name of the owner, usually with the further identification of a patronymic, and sometimes with a title. A man in the service of the royal government might add the name of the king for whom he worked.

Many seals and bullae [clay disks on which the seal was stamped] have been found, and some of them bear the names of personages in the Bible. That the names are indeed those of those personages is attested by expert dating of the style of the writing.

Here are some seals or bullae that belonged to personages named in the biblical text.

Bulla: "Ahaz son of Jotham King of Judah"
Bible: "Ahaz son of Jotham, King of Judah, began to reign (II Kings 16:1), "Jotham slept with his fathers and his son Ahaz succeeded him as king" (II Chronicles 27:9)

Bulla: "Baruch ben-Neriah the Scribe"
Bible: "So Jeremiah got another scroll and gave it to Baruch ben-Neriah the Scribe" (Jeremiah 36:32)

Seal: "Seriah [son of] Neriah"
Bible: "The instructions that Jeremiah gave to Seriah son of Neriah son of Mahseiah . . . the chancellor" (Jeremiah 51:59)

Bulla: "Jerameel son of the king"
Bible: "The king ordered Jerameel, son of the king . . . . " (Jeremiah 36:26)

Bulla: "Gemariah son of Shaphan"
Bible: "Then Baruch read in the book the words of Jeremiah . . . n the chamber of Gemariah the son of Shaphan the scribe" (Jeremiah 369-11)

Seal: "Shema Servant of Jeroboam"
Bible: This seal was found at Megiddo, one of the strongholds of King Jeroboam II of Israel.

Bulla: "Yehozarak ben-Hilkiah Servant of Hezekiah"
Bible: This is from an official of King Hezekiah of Judah.

Seal: "Jezebel"
Bible: This seal is unusually large, and engraved on an unusually costly gem and it most likely belonged to the Tyrian wife of King Ahab of Israel.

* * * * * * * * * * * *
One of the Minimalist/Nullist principles is that the history of the biblical age must be based first and foremost on archaeology. Thus it may be concluded that since archaeology has not come up with a distinctive Israelite/Judaean style of pottery they were not a distinct people.

It may be so that the pottery was no different, but the people were – for only they could have produced the artifact known as the Harvester Letter, dated to the time of the Kingdom of Judah. It is written in ink on a shard from a broken pot – as was the custom for short notes in the days in preference to expensive parchment.

The writer was an agricultural worker, and he addressed his letter to the local royal governor. In it, he complained that a creditor was holding his garment as collateral on a debt, even though the law of the land required that the garment be returned to him.

This little bit of a broken non-distinctive clay pot shows that this man of the common people
-- knew how to write
-- knew biblical law: "If you take your neighbor's garment as a pledge, you shall deliver it unto him by that the sun goes down" (Exodus 22:26).
-- expected the governor to act to secure his rights.

END



This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-02-2008 10:27 AM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-02-2008 11:16 AM IamJoseph has responded

    
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2008 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 17 of 30 (445428)
01-02-2008 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by IamJoseph
01-02-2008 11:13 AM


Re: HOW'S YOUR HISTORY KNOWLEDGE?
oh, shut up.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by IamJoseph, posted 01-02-2008 11:13 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by IamJoseph, posted 01-02-2008 11:26 AM macaroniandcheese has not yet responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1748 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 18 of 30 (445430)
01-02-2008 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by macaroniandcheese
01-02-2008 10:27 AM


Re: TIME, SCIENCE, MATHS, HISTORY & THE HEBREW CALENDAR.
quote:
This is completely off-topic, completely undemonstrated, uneducated bible drivel.

Its more historical content than bible. Nor is the OT calendar undemonstrated, uneducated bible drivel - it is very active today. Nor did Babylon follow the Bible. Its not off topic if its about OT laws, many of which are calendar related.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-02-2008 10:27 AM macaroniandcheese has not yet responded

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 Message 22 by Rahvin, posted 01-02-2008 4:15 PM IamJoseph has not yet responded

    
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1748 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 19 of 30 (445431)
01-02-2008 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by macaroniandcheese
01-02-2008 11:16 AM


Re: HOW'S YOUR HISTORY KNOWLEDGE?
Stop emailing me for responses. And I'll oblige you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-02-2008 11:16 AM macaroniandcheese has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 20 of 30 (445451)
01-02-2008 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rahvin
12-28-2007 9:52 PM


The rights secured by law should be done so without discrimination on any ground such as sexual orientation, sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.

The obligation of the state to hold free elections at reasonable intervals by secret ballot, under conditions which will ensure the free expression of the opinion of the people in the choice of the legislature.

The death penalty shall be abolished.



I don't see these ethical laws, which have been mandated into law affecting millions of people, as coming directly from the OT.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rahvin, posted 12-28-2007 9:52 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by IamJoseph, posted 01-02-2008 9:17 PM Modulous has responded
 Message 24 by IamJoseph, posted 01-02-2008 9:39 PM Modulous has responded

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1267 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 21 of 30 (445484)
01-02-2008 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by IamJoseph
01-02-2008 6:13 AM


Re: Freedom of Religion
I would think, by not including ritual laws, which are specific to its prefixed, 'UNTO YOU' [Israelites], and by showing some world accepted laws not contained in the OT.

That would be exactly what I did, IaJ. I pointed out several "world-accepted" laws that are not contained in the OT - in fact, they are specifically opposed by the Bible.

Understand what that means. Not that there is an acknowledgement of other Gds, but that this was the percieved beliefs prior to Abraham's Monotheism. It means there are no other Gods ['I am the Lord, there is no other'/Ex]. we see that the 2nd C of Sinai forbids the worship of any components of the universe, including those on this earth, including images and animals: obviously, there can be no view that this is because the images and animals are Gds, but because it is false and a wrong path. This does not come under moral/ethical laws, but ritual. This is a good, correct, intelligent, unquestionable law, even from the pov of atheists, scientists and other belief systems. There can be no Monotheism w/o forbidding other false worshiping; this is what caused Abraham to flee his hometown in UR, with a death sentence decreed against him. In all cases of understanding the laws, its intergration premise must be factored in: one cannot conclude with a contradiction in another place - this signifies a wrong turn, an incorrect understanding. Wrong way - your bad - go back.

I'm aware of what this commandment means. But it is contextually relevant to the next few quotes in supporting that the OT directly opposes the freedom to worship however and whatever an individual desires, or respecting others' rights to do so.

Human sacrifice was first forbidden in the OT; as well as incest, beastiality and basing knowledge and direction according to the occult. The term of the text is sorcerors, and this is different from modern times palm readers and crystal balls, which were murdered in 1000s by the medevial church. in biblical times, a sorceror was a very evil person, able to cause the death of a family member, or making a nation go to war, as well as inculcating very vile practices which cannot be recovered from. In all cases, the issue of a death sentence is qualified by several conditions, even before convicting the owner of an animal which killed humans - warnings and conditions apply; the penalty adaptable to the generation's held ways - even for wanton murder [capital punishment was first abolished in Israel, 2900 years ago]. But the law against ancient sorcery was a good law, and not to be confused with superstitition, today's modern white witches or bias against other forms of believers ['LOVE THE STRANGER'; etc].

Bend the words all you like, IaJ, the text specifically says to kill witches. It does not further define that a sorceror/witch/whatever you want to call it must have used their "magic" to kill, or have committed incest or bestiality - it simply says not to allow them to live. It specifically says to kill people for practicing another religion.

Read carefully this exacting text. NOT BOW = limited to worship only; AFTER THEIR WORKS = abandoning Monotheism laws and practicing Polytheism/paganism via ensnarement - inducement and purposeful design. It does not sanction being disrespectful of other beliefs or not accomodating them w/o prejudice [DO NOT VEX THE STRANGER; etc]. Here, both party's interests must be negotiated, and the stranger is also onuserable by 'HONOR THE LAWS OF THE KINGDOM WHICH HOUSES YOU'. If one accepts to go and live in Mecca, for example, they cannot flaunt that nation's laws.

Are you blind? It specifically says "but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images!" It says to rip down the monuments and temples of other faiths, and destroy them! That's exactly what it says, IaJ! Those words cannot be interpreted in a different way! Do you seriously mean to say that, if the Bible says "turn left," we should be able to interpret it as "turn right?"

No covenant = which would contradict the existing Abrahamic covenant.

That's your own addition, IaJ. It says not to make agreements with those who practice other faiths. Period. Stop adding words to the Bible.

This is qualified with, and applying to: 'lest they make thee sin against me'. It is an extension of the previous verse 32, namely, it refers to making covenants with them of a religious nature. It is similar to a national patriotic law, where alliegience is already made by virtue of being a citizen of a nation, which acts as a covenant.

No, it specifically says that the Hebrews are not to allow people of other faiths to reside in their territory. These verses together say "Don't deal with them, don't let them live with you, don't even associate with them...and eventually, completely abolish their religions and destroy their sacred imagery, buildings, and other works." They specifically order Jews not to allow the freedom of religion, and in fact to work against anyone who doesn't worship their god.

But on a closer examination, those laws represent the antithesis of your conclusion.

You can say "black is white" all you want, IaJ...but the OT specifically forbids allowing other faiths to even exist. It's right there, in print. I'm just copying the words as they are written.


Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
This message is a reply to:
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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1267 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 22 of 30 (445485)
01-02-2008 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by IamJoseph
01-02-2008 11:21 AM


Re: TIME, SCIENCE, MATHS, HISTORY & THE HEBREW CALENDAR.
Its more historical content than bible. Nor is the OT calendar undemonstrated, uneducated bible drivel - it is very active today. Nor did Babylon follow the Bible. Its not off topic if its about OT laws, many of which are calendar related.

It's about "moral, ethical laws," IaJ, and has nothing to do with "calendar related" laws, or the references you believe relate to science. This thread is specifically regarding your earlier quote, where you said ALL moral and ethical laws come from the OT. Anything not related to ethics and morality as they relate to the OT is off-topic.


Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1748 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 23 of 30 (445539)
01-02-2008 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Modulous
01-02-2008 2:16 PM


quote:
The rights secured by law should be done so without discrimination on any ground such as sexual orientation, sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.

That's nonesense. Every second and instance, all humans discriminate, in every thought and action. The feat is to discriminate correctly. The issue is not that one has a right to do what they want, but what they do within the law. The law is in the preamble, which caters to individual rights only after the communal rights are in place, and as transcendent; this is the only guarantee of individual rights. Freedom is chaos; Liberty is freedom with laws.

So here we find, a woman, for example, can do what she chooses within the law. She can even choose not to marry. But if she does choose to get married, she does not have the right to choose by herself if she will have children or not [unless this was pre-agreed by both]; in this case, to protect both party's right to have a child, the man takes responsibility of providing during the pregnancy period; by subsequence, that woman cannot be called upon by the government for national guard service in Iraq. The OT law says, a woman is immune from following any law with a specific time period requirement - because if the task is important, which the community depends upon, that woman may not be available to appear on demand - she may be engaged in a far more vital task, like pregnancy or catering to a child's illness. IOW, a woman is free to do what she wants, in accordance with the hovering and transcendent requirements. This applies to a man in other circumstances. It is not descrimination of the individual or the community, or other laws which also have to be factored in

The premise a woman cannot be subject to any laws on sexual orientation, is gibberish, bereft of deep contemplation and ignorant of the reality. Reality is family, marraige, children - all the rest is to foster such. The OT makes a clearly intelligent law, which is not subject to any newage madness or fundamentalist extremes - the OT is the only perfection of laws. It does not say, for example, a woman cannot drive a car or be educated: the law of education of offspring is encumbent on parents, and no gender is applicable here. So when you use terms such as no sex discrimination, it is just naive, paranoid and deficiient of reality.

Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.


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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1748 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 24 of 30 (445547)
01-02-2008 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Modulous
01-02-2008 2:16 PM


quote:
The obligation of the state to hold free elections at reasonable intervals by secret ballot, under conditions which will ensure the free expression of the opinion of the people in the choice of the legislature.

Back to reality. If you wish to state the law, imagine the date is 3,500 BCE: no such thing yet as secret ballot; even legislature was not a coined term yet - all this began in the OT and is seen here in its first embryonic form, exactly relevent to its timespace, and which applies today also via evolutionary grads. Let it be described to apply to all generations of mankind. The core laws are issued in the OT, as seen with the applicable criteria for judiciary laws, witness laws, proof criteria, innocent unless proven guilty, equal justice for rich and poor, and king or commoner, independent arms length judges, etc. These are the relevent factors.

Where do you imagine these came from, and how can any process be realised unless these laws are its foundation? Today, the people can elect their Representative; there is an opposing party or the congress - which the President or King has to counter with. In ancient times, under the OT law, the congress is represented by the appointed prophet of the times, the King acts as the President. Consider that what occured between King David and the Prophet Nathan, is akin to Bill Clinton or Nixon and their impeachment by the congress. The King was charged with a death sentence before the entire people, and we are talking about Israel's greatest king. The king accepted the death penalty. Show me its equivalence anywhere else - in any generation? Jutice is a primal factor in law, and thus in the OT laws:

'MY JUSTICE SHALL NOT SUFFER', is combined with 'MERCY, FOREBEARENCE, SLOW TO ANGER, FORGIVENESS, LONGSUFFERING [BEFORE ACTION IS TAKEN], TRUTH.

quote:

The death penalty shall be abolished.


Nonsensical statement which says nothing. The vital factor here is 'SENTENCE' not the death bit. The primodial factor is that a gravest of crimes was commited. The solution is not whether death or not death, but what penalty will apply. So you have to nominate a penalty which 'FITS' the crime. You never included these relevent factors. Basically, whether capital or life, has very little significance, and hardly relates to the issue. The justice aspect must cater to justice - of the victim and the community - whatever penalty is selected, depending on a nation's merit. Go ahead, there is no problem in another equivalent penalty. But you will commit a crime if that penalty is not in accordance with the crime.


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Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 25 of 30 (445615)
01-03-2008 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by IamJoseph
01-02-2008 9:17 PM


That's nonesense. Every second and instance, all humans discriminate, in every thought and action. The feat is to discriminate correctly.

Your opinion doesn't matter. This is still an ethical principle that is accepted by many, that is mandated in law and that is not in the OT. Your claim is thus wrong.


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Modulous
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 26 of 30 (445616)
01-03-2008 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by IamJoseph
01-02-2008 9:39 PM


Back to reality. If you wish to state the law, imagine the date is 3,500 BCE: no such thing yet as secret ballot;

So, the ethical principle that the people have a right to choose the legislature in a fair and impartial manner is one that is not in the OT. Once again - your claim is shown false.

Nonsensical statement which says nothing. The vital factor here is 'SENTENCE' not the death bit. The primodial factor is that a gravest of crimes was commited. The solution is not whether death or not death, but what penalty will apply.

There is an ethical principle which says that the penalty which will apply will not be death. This does not come from the OT and yet it is law that affects millions today. These words are word-for-word part of law, you admit they are not OT - which says that certain crimes demand the death penalty.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 58 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 27 of 30 (445825)
01-04-2008 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by macaroniandcheese
01-02-2008 10:27 AM


Re: TIME, SCIENCE, MATHS, HISTORY & THE HEBREW CALENDAR.
also, stop saying maths. it makes you sound stupids.

brenna, the dictionary can be your friend as well.


This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 58 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 28 of 30 (445826)
01-04-2008 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by macaroniandcheese
12-30-2007 2:23 PM


Re: Freedom of Religion
the hebrews were never monotheists. they were henotheists. there may be any number of gods, but i like this one.

"were never" is probably the wrong wording. towards the height of the biblical period, they were incredibly intolerant of other gods, and many of the prophets present a view of god that is so completely encompassing of everything (good and evil) that there is no reason to think they even considered that other gods might exist.

the degree of monotheistic tendency in the judeo-christian tradition varies pretty wildly from henotheism to strictly totalitarian monotheism, to god-and-demi-gods monotheism, to trinitarian beliefs.

one thing, however, is pretty safe to say. the majority of the biblical tradition looks pretty badly on other gods in israel. commanding genocide to avoid it, ordering the destruction of asherot and baalim, cursing the kings to allowed foreign gods in, etc. freedom of religion there was not.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2008 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 29 of 30 (445882)
01-04-2008 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by arachnophilia
01-04-2008 12:45 AM


Re: TIME, SCIENCE, MATHS, HISTORY & THE HEBREW CALENDAR.
yes, and it's maths in french as well. congratulations.
This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2008 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 30 of 30 (445886)
01-04-2008 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by arachnophilia
01-04-2008 12:53 AM


Re: Freedom of Religion
to god-and-demi-gods monotheism

i don't consider that monotheism. but then i don't consider modern christianity to be monotheistic, either.


This message is a reply to:
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