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Author Topic:   The location of the Tree of Life
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 241 of 302 (218566)
06-22-2005 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
06-21-2005 10:55 PM


Re: General reply for all to consider
Thanks for the English-to-fundy translation.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 06-21-2005 10:55 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 06-26-2005 8:04 PM ringo has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 242 of 302 (218570)
06-22-2005 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
06-19-2005 11:02 PM


let's just change what the bible says.
I never said he wasn't in control of it. I said that he wasn't directly doing it. I think that that God employs good to corral evil into certain predetermined paths.
In others words, in my opinion, while God is not directly causing it to happen, it seems more appropriate to say that he is restraining it so that it doesn't get out of control -- or, when it does get out of control, he redirects it so as to do the least possible damage possible.
what about the examples where it's used for good? for example, any evil in the bible could be taken as a lesson.
and what about the examples were it talks about god creating and sending evil?
Yes, but I don't think it's just as simple as saying it's unfair. It seems more likely to me that many concluded that a God who is all-good would never employ these methods directly.
one group, later on, did. yes. but the stance of other biblical authors (including the ones who wrote genesis) is that god is fully capable and understanding of evil.
Instead, whenever there is a passage that implies that both God and satan (or man in the case of Pharaoh) are doing the exact same thing, people tend to read this as representing a tremendous struggle of wills between good and evil.
both actions are provoking sin. the same sin. there is no struggle here.
If this is correct, then we see that David may have been indeed inspired by God's anger to take a census for whatever reason, but that David was also moved by satan to abuse the census that God ordered him to partake in. In addition to this, God's initial anger may have even been the result of the temptation that David was undergoing in the first place.
look again:
Joab did not include Levi and Benjamin in the numbering
david's sin is not joab's. joab's practive might have been wrong, but david's sin is the census itself. that's why they changed it. notice in the very passage it says the bit about joab not counting certain groups? why didn't he?
quote:
because the king's command was repulsive to him. This command was also evil in the sight of God; so he punished Israel.
david is not being punished for missing some people, or including the wrong people. he's being punished for trying to test god's promise of not being able to number israel.
Well...I disagree with God creating evil and being capable of evil
then you disagree with the bible.
quote:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Solid scriptural position or not, do you honeslty think this is how God operates?
yes. it has to be. who else created evil? or if you want to define evil as "absence of god" or "... of good" who stepped back his presence? god created evil, and he did it for a reason.
he did it because without evil, we don't have a meaningful choice. and without evil, he can't test our faith.
Like I said before, which of these two situations above sounds more like what one would expect from a God who has given us the capacity to freely choose?
ibid.
Well...God may have made the garden for himself -- but allowed Adam to be a steward.
the indication of the text is that garden was for adam. god makes adam, then a place for him to live, puts him there, and gives him something to do: name and care for other creations.
Well..there's a few more trees than these two -- but these two seem to be the important ones.
well, yes. there had to have been more than two tress. actually, god indicates there's more than two.
True, but he calls it both good and evil. The tree still probably had a good purpose for man, but only after they were mature enough to eat from the tree of life.
yes, but god told adam no. it might be "not yet," which i too think is the case. but it was still "no. you eat, you die."
Uh...well...no.
I think God places a cherub in the garden to protect Adam and Eve in Eden when God is away. I think the cherub then desires Eve and tries to get close to her by assuming the form of a snake
book, chapter, verse?
(and it's not a normal literalsnake, unless you're suggesting that snakes literally talk).
why don't snakes talk, do you think? according to genesis, for a second. divorce this notion of reality too. if snakes talked before, and they don't now, why not?
The cherub realizes that he won't be able to get to Eve without Adam being nearby, so he includes Adam in his scheme to get closer to Eve.
ok, now we're into the realm of "making stuff up as we go along." as far as i know, this isn't even in any apocryphal books. or paradise lost, for that matter. the indication (and the way everyone else here reads it) is that the serpent used eve to get to adam. not vice-versa.
Yes, but this all assumes that your previous assumptions are correct. I don't think they are.
alright, assume my assumptions are wrong. who got adam to eat?
Yes, because God saw that it was not good for Adam to be alone. Despite opinions to the contrary, woman is the final crowning glory of God's creation.
sure. like i said, for company.
Adam is not punished by being driven out of the garden. Adam is protected by being driven out of the garden.
have you really not read the story? god curses adam, eve, and the serpent. those three bits in verse, those are curses. i would call working the ground until you return to it a curse after living in a garden where food grows on trees. and eve's? pain and suffer, and a dominating husband. you think these are protections?
Pharaoh, on the other hand, is utterly decimated for challenging God.
pharoah is also not god's firstborn, is he?
Or perhaps you're clearly manipulating every step of the translation process so as to conclude that Adam and Eve didn't have a choice.
you're the one reading it completely backwards here, making stuff up, and forcing your interpretations into places they don't fit. your thoughts are pretty clearly contradicted by the bible. all i'm arguing for is the simplest reading. when we get that right, we'll move on to what it means. but first we have to established what happens in the story. and you're not doing so good here.
Or maybe they are depicted as having a choice because they had a choice.
yes, and my point is that adam's excuse of "eve made me do it" and eve's excuse of "the serpent made me do it" are invalid. they sinned, and it's their fault. even if god set the game against them. even if god lied. their choices are still their choices. and that's what god grades on.
Yes, that's exactly what God was trying to do -- allow Pharaoh and his kingdom to become so full of pain and suffering (which is less then what Pharaoh and Egypt were doing to the Hebrews) that any sane person would have let them go in round one.
But nooooooooooooooooooo...
Pharaoh had to make things difficult because his pride and vanity wouldn't allow him to give up the Israelites. In the Egyptian scheme of things, Pharaoh was the son of a divinity. To let the Israelites go would mean him having to admit that he wasn't a god -- certainly not a Supreme God -- or at least a weaker god than the Israelites' God.
you're missing it. and it's the answer to your question.
god manipulated pharoah. he messed with his emotions. but even thought god set the game against him, pharoah still could have said "just go." if pharoah did not have that choice, then god is unjust in his punishments.
(and yes. the punishments did outweigh egypt's treatment of the israelites. pharoah couldn't conjure plagues, darkness, or kill every firstborn)
I think by now most people grasp that this isn't just a snake.
stating you've won your case doesn't make it so. you haven't. the story very clearly explains the literal qualities of snakes, and uses the word "cherub" elsewhere in a literal sense. genesis is not told from adam's perspective, it's third-person. if it was a cherub in disguise, it could have easily said that, like it does elsewhere -- genesis 19 for example has two angels in disguise. and it makes that fact very clear.
I also think that most people by now grasp that the cherub in the garden (who fell and became satan) was actually the snake, and that the cherub was created good before he choose to become evil.
and you've based this on what, exactly? you haven't shown any reason anyone should read that in the story. it's simply not there. wanna take a poll?
Whenever there is a passage that implies that both God and satan (or man in the case of Pharaoh) are doing the exact same thing, people tend to read this as representing a tremendous struggle of wills between good and evil.
not when they're doing the same thing. if man does something, and then god does the same thing, they're obviously... doing the same thing.
But see, I'm not trying to change your stance arachnophilia. I'm just making sure an alternative explanation is presented so that others that read through this thread won't read your thoughts unchallenged.
i don't call this a challenge. most of the explanation you presented is just complete ad-hoc fantasy. there's nothing in the text to suggest it, and A LOT to refute it. so it's a safe bet that that alternative explanation is wrong.
my interpretation may not be THE right one. there may not BE a right one. but there are wrong ones. i could read "frankenstein" to about the glories of genetic engineering, for instance. but i'd be wrong: it's a cautionary tale.
fair emotionally detached presentation
don't post here much, do you? lol. i can't remember the last emotionally detached debate. but honestly, it doesn't keep me up at nights.
Clearly, we've already made up our own minds. It's others who may be in doubt that I'm concerned about.
seriously, wanna take a poll?

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 06-19-2005 11:02 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by ringo, posted 06-22-2005 4:24 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 283 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 06-27-2005 9:00 AM arachnophilia has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 243 of 302 (218583)
06-22-2005 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
06-21-2005 3:38 PM


Re: General reply for all to consider
Yes, and you're interpreting them in the most literal sense possible in order to force the conclusion.
and you're ignoring what it says in place of what you'd like it to say.
Yes, the lord has allowed it to happen. But he hasn't done evil.
and the lord did not blow the trumpet, either. the point of the verse is that god is in control. the second line (it's two lines) is the answer to the first. the question, rhetorically, is "when someone's attcking you, aren't you afraid?" the answer is "god sends all evil, why should i be afraid of something from god?"
but seriously. it says that god sends evil. so did a ton of the other verses i cited.
Do you actually think the Lord is both good and evil?
yes. and no. i think god is above "good" and "evil." those are terms we use, and somewhat subjectively. a lot of times, the things those verses i cited were talking about were wars. the definition of "evil" is definitally subjective, whether or not the authors realized it. the opponents obviously didn't think the war was evil. and i'm sure the canaanites sure thought israel was evil -- they only committed mass genocide.
similarly, i don't think hitler would have thought himself evil. but we do. my point is that god is above those petty differences. god defines what is good and evil for us. god is not held accountable to himself. or us, for that matter.
Actually, it's a good example if you can actually read the words "JESUS" in-between the black lines.
now, it's a bad example, because i'm an art major. (yes, btw, i picked out the other ones too)
my father once went to a school open house when i was very young, and they gave out a pamphlet designed to make parents udnerstand how hard reading is to kindergarteners. it was in a greek font. most parents were perplexed, but my father wasn't impressed. he could have written it in the actual greek language. so it was a bad example for him.
in other words: you're speaking my language. being cryptic is gonna be tricky. although, i will admit that the first time i saw this, i only saw the black. of course, i was also 8 years old.
You are reading more into my own words than I've actually said.
isn't it ironic? dontcha think?
anyways. from the quote:
it may very well be likely did God did NOT know what the adversary was up to
this makes god out to be one of a few options: stupid, blind, or just plain not there. what do you suppose god was doing when the serpent said "god's wrong, if you eat it, you'll be like god" ? closing his eyes and humming to himself? sticking his fingers in his ears? the garden can't be very big, and god certainly could have heard him.
you're basically arguing that god is incapable of perceiving and understanding evil. so that means he can't see evil acts. which means that he's not seeing evil people when they do evil things. how is that a misrepresentation of what you said?
Then what about a passage like this one, "For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil."
howabout it? god is pretty clearly capable of seeing even the HIDDEN evil things, isn't he? this "only in contrast" bit doesn't really factor in anywhere in the bible, does it?
Futhermore, if God is both good and evil, then why are there passages which indicate the following:
The LORD is good,
did i say the lord was not good?
look, if you say to your kids "how was school?" and they say "good" what do you suppose they mean? do they mean there is not one element of it they don't like?
The LORD is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and rich in love.
The LORD is good to all;
he has compassion on all he has made.
where is god's compassion for sodom? for egypt? did god not make sodom or egypt? do you think these psalms are the literal word of god, or people singing their praises of something? is everything they say 100% correct about everything, down to finest detail? is it incompatible with god saying "go into the promised land and kill everything that moves?"
Surely one of these passages could have said, "The Lord is evil..." or something to that effect. If I sat down and went through the entire Scriptures I could copy and paste a GARGANTUAN pile of Scripture verses which testify that the Lord is good.
the lord is clearly more good than evil -- i never said otherwise. i just said he uses both. citing one doesn't prove the opposite is not true. this is a false dichotomy. there are clearly verses that say that god does things that are called evil, and examples where outside readers could read god's actions as evil. but, as i said, i believe god does everything for good, even evil.
Since I don't feel like copying nad pasting 1/3 of the Scriptures here at EvC, at the very least I will demonstrate a few passages passages here which show how God uses evil to bring about greater good.
i'm not arguing against that. i'm arguing for that.
Furthermore, if God is both evil and good, then why would various Scriptures say the following?
are those directed at god? or are they directed at us? god favors the people here are good. but that doesn't mean he doesn't use evil to accomplish his will. and it doesn't ment he didn't create evil, so that we would have a choice between the two. you're even citings the same book i did, by the same prophet. you think his views are discordant?
look, i ran through this with riverat: if the crucifixion was part of god's will, god must have used evil for it, because it was evil we needed to be redeemed from, and evil that unjustly killed christ. god's plan involved evil people, doing evil things, for the greater good.
If Amos is saying to hate evil, is he not also saying to hate God -- because God is apparently also evil by your definition?
amos is speaking of principles and morality. not god. he's saying "do this, and don't do that, and god will like you."
i heard a rumor about a tribe in africa that was evangelized to by missionaries. and they believed. but they decided that because god would forgive you for your sins, but the devil was capable of only punishment, it was better to not piss of the devil.
But don't the Scriptures say to love God -- how can one be commanded to both love and hate God at the same time?
when's the last time you lived with your parents?
If God is both good and evil, then why would Isaiah warn so strenuously about calling evil good and calling good evil? By your definition, statements like this apparently make very little sense.
isaiah, again, is speaking of morality and actions. or rather, sides in a war. he's talking about the captivity and the decadence of babylonian society. and, i think, integration.
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
so says james. note also that this is about personal responsibility: it denies the role of satan in temptation. he says "each one is tempted [...] by his own evil desire." no devil. no satan. nope, just you, yourself.
so that tree in the garden? not god tempting. not the serpent tempting. nope. it's adam's fault. and eve's fault, each for their own evil desires. is he right? yes, i think so: god does punish adam and eve. it does seem to be their fault for doing what they did.
but.... the serpent did tempt them, didn't he? so what does the verse mean? it means, don't say "god's testing me!" because the test is really with yourself. and your actions are not god's fault. god just writes the tests and grades them, you fail on your own merit.
On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
on the contrary: love your enemy. but not out of spite, and not to annoy him.
Now that I think of it, isn't this passage actually quoting Proverbs 25: 21-22?
*sigh*
yes. does it sound like a teaching of jesus? coals on the head and such?
All's that you've shown is that you don't agree with it. The part about it being erroneous is for God to decide.
no, i've shown pretty clearly that evil operates at BEST within the constraints god sets on it, and clearly in the presence of god. the entire exile (you know, most of the prophetic books) is described as god visiting an evil on israel and judah, because they have done evil themselves. you're arguing that evil and god are exclusive to the extent that lack of one defines the other. and this is just not the case in the bible. as i've shown, there are verse that clearly indicate god in the presence of evil, using evil, and manipulating evil.
therefor, evil cannot be the absence of god, in the views of the authors of most of the bible.
However, you're also refusing to get involved in the idea of free-will in connection with sin -- and the whole concept of whether man even has a free-will or not. Please address these questions too while you're busy copying and pasting all the Scriptural passages from KJV that you can find.
i use the kjv because i can search it. it's much easier than looking the old fashioned way. and uh, i did discuss free will. back before you asked me to, i might point out: a said that god holds use accountable for our choices, even if he rigs the game a little. even though god manipulated pharoah, pharoah still had a choice.
As I said to Ifen, making a choice doesn't seem so much about making a choice, but rather about selecting which pre-set facet of life one will experience in the future. Certainly a choice still exists, but the final destination is certainly limited to a finte set of possibilities which were already predetermined by God.
i imagine god like a sort of giant quantum computer, computing every possibility and alternate universe with every choice, and picking which directions go further before any of them every happened.
it's sort of the donnie-darko-in-reverse view of the universe.
Sometimes, such as in Exodus 8:15, it says that Pharaoh "hardened his heart" -- implying that Pharoah hardened his own heart.
However, sometimes, such as in Exodus 10:1, it says that God "hardened his heart" -- implying that God did it to Pharaoh whether Pharaoh agreed or not.
it does appear god has a role in it, doesn't he? do you deny that god is manipulating pharoah?
Yet oddly back in Exodus 7:13, it says that "Pharaoh's heart became hard" -- implying in this instance that Pharoah's heart hardened notwithstanding any involvment from God or Pharoah himself (or perhaps hardening via the conflicting wills pressed against it: God v. Pharaoh).
you forgot part of it: "as god had said." jump back a few verses, and what did god say? "I will harden..."
it appears to be using them interchangeably. why do you suppose that is?
It seems to me that this is consistent with the Israelite view: that all of history was an act of God. Beyond that, the writers did not appear to make a clear distinction on the matter of who exactly caused what
so according to the bible, at least the bits of it older than 200 bc, does free will exist?
By rejecting God's will, it seems as though Pharaoh's heart was hardened. In other words, if Pharoah resisted God, he would have no choice but to have his heart hardened by his rejection of God's will.
doesn't follow, and contradicted by the text. god clearly indicates that it is his will that pharoah's heart will be hardened, whoever is doing it. so pharoah is in compliance with god's will. (just like jesus's executioners)
In this sense, Pharaoh still had a choice up until he chose to resist God
i doubt pharoah ever once took Yahweh seriously until moses came along. i like the way "prince of egypt" tells the story, if you've ever seen it. pharoah gets more and more convinced with each passing plague. but there's not really any indication of that in the bible, iirc. the bible seems to have pharoah not taking moses and his god seriously ever, until the passover. and at that point, it might even be that they're just causing far too much trouble.
egypt, clearly, does not convert.
Edit: by the way, are you into Kabbalah? I ask this because some of your ideas seem more Kabbalistic than specifically Judaic.
they are, somewhat. but no, i'm not especially into the qabala. but most of my views are rather consistent with modern reform (progressive?) judaism:
http://www.faqs.org/...m/FAQ/06-Jewish-Thought/preamble.html
i will admit to be vaguely curious about the qabala, but only about as much as i am about the quran.
Likewise, in the Zohar it is told that when the holy snake, Mashiach, will kill the evil snake
see exodus.
quote:
Exd 7:12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
certain snakes are viewed as good, and certain ones bad. in numbers, god sends some bad ones. so moses makes a good one.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 06-21-2005 3:38 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 06-26-2005 8:43 PM arachnophilia has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 244 of 302 (218587)
06-22-2005 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by riVeRraT
06-20-2005 8:25 AM


Re: Dead Spirits
But he was told it was wrong, so he knew, unless he forgot.
no, i mean, it's quite probable he had no idea what he was doing. if he was telling the truth when he explains himself to god, one of the possible implications is that eve quite literally tricked him. she might have disguised it, or slipped it to him, or served it to him as an ingredient in something else.
the story doesn't say one way or the other, but he's responsible for the outcome, and eve is responsible for knowing a rule she wasn't around to hear. could have been a double misunderstanding. but i don't really think that's what the story is saying. eve, for instance, seems to know the rule, even though she didn't exist when god told adam. so maybe adam also knew what he was doing.
Then why are there so many references to soul, and spirit. But when it says to love God, it says to do so with all your heart, mind and soul. All OT references. It is by God's spirit in us, that we are alive.
no no, not ot, the torah. it doesn't seem to use "soul" or "spirit" the same way modern christendom does.
The bible questions if animals go to heaven, but I do not think it gives an answer. I wonder myself.
i like to think so.
Yes we are all born with the breath of life (God's spirit). That is how we are alive. We also have a soul. But God's spirit can only be activated in us by seeking him, and following him. It's there, but not yet alive in us. People had to do many things to know God's spirit in the OT.
i don't think that's what it means. when it describes god breathing into adam, that's the process by which he becomes alive. so god's breath = life.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by riVeRraT, posted 06-20-2005 8:25 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by riVeRraT, posted 06-22-2005 7:13 AM arachnophilia has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 245 of 302 (218614)
06-22-2005 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by ringo
06-22-2005 12:44 AM


Re: Dead Spirits
But Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." He was talking about this life, not the next.
Why do you pick and choose quotes from Jesus?
We could have a quote war.
He also said what we do here on earth is building up treasures in heaven. And that he is preparing a place for us. So if you believe one thing he says, why not the other?
Unfortunately, organized religion has a long history of pushing "eternal life" at the cost of misery in this life. Organized religion has always supported the oppressors, with the idea that the next life will be better.
Fact: we all suffer, whether we are getting eternal life or not.
Suffering has little to do with whether or not your going to heaven.
Suffering is only evidence, that there is nothing you can do about suffering.
Exactly how do you know that "He wasn't continuing any metaphor"?
Well aince he didn't give a specific age of a child, it could mean many different things. We have to study all the other things he says to see what it is about a child that he wants us to mimic.
Infants are born not knowing evil, but they also do not know good. They barely have a conscience.
I think children, in the later stages of life have a simple desire to live life in a pleasing loving manor. Anything short of that is corruption from the people raising that child and his/her surroundings.
I think Jesus is mostly refering to dropping all the hurt in your life, for we make oaths based on our hurts, and live life out a certain way because of that. Dogma included.
In another thread, somebody has suggested that those who trumpet their "faith" the loudest actually have the weakest faith. I tend to agree. "The amount God comes to us in life" is based on what He decides, not on your faith or your conception of faith.
I don't know why you are mentioning trumpeting faith, it has nothing to do with what I said.
It is not based on what he decides, it is based on our faith, however, coming to know God is not merely a human effort. Many are called, but few are choosen, or few choose you might say.
Jesus said we could move mountains with our faith. Have you ever stood atr the base of a mountain and tried to move it with your faith?
Speak for yourself. The "devil" hasn't been near me in years. I guess he's too busy planting fundy dogma in the minds of people with weak faith
I would definatly debate that one. I can see alreeady things in your life, the way you live, that were caused by hurts in your life, all the work of the devil. For one, your hatred of dogma.
Don't feel bad though, I think almost everyone has been hurt by the church. The trick is not to look for God there, but to praise the God you alreay know there. But many people seek God through the church, and man has taken advantge of this over the years. Sucks.
I do not know you very well, so I could be wrong. But if you are in a place that is actually where Jesus doesn't want you to be, then the devil is happy, and would leave you alone. But good times never last.
The only way we get to know God is by faith.
I hope that you too will grow out of that idea.
It is the only way to GET to know him. Once you find him, you need faith the see him accomplish the things he promises. I see this all the time in my life. My faith is weak.
Do you think all children are born knowing God?
Absolutely. I ask again: How can you look into a child's eyes and not know that?
Pretty simple actually. Infants don't know much of anything.
They are a miracle, and a joy of life.
Maybe you feel God when you look at them, but they don't
But that "breath" was the only thing that God breathed into Adam. If Adam had "the Spirit of God" in him, where else did it come from?
Most likely from walking with God in the garden, and learning from him. IT doesn't say how long Adam was in the garden, but I am sure it was more than one day.
Adam lost the spirit when he ate the fruit. Adam was born knowing good. The spirit is good, the spirit is love, thats all Adam knew until his eyes were opened.
Babies are not born with this comfort of love. It has to be shown to them. Just as is the bad. They are innocent.
It's like trying to seek the wind. (There's that spirit=wind thing again. ) The harder you look for it, the less chance you have of "finding" it. You can only "find" it by standing still and accepting it.
That might be one way to find it. We all travel different paths. There is no one exclusive way to finding God.
The eastern philosophies are only based on parts of the truth.
emptying yourself is not a bad idea, except that some people are incapable of doing that. It is only with the help of God that some of us can start to do it.
To empty yourself is to become like a child, back to innocents. But we are human, we cannot forget, only forgive. Thats where the freedom is.
Then you will know the truth, and it will set you free.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by ringo, posted 06-22-2005 12:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by ringo, posted 06-22-2005 11:08 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 246 of 302 (218617)
06-22-2005 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by arachnophilia
06-22-2005 3:01 AM


Re: Dead Spirits
she might have disguised it, or slipped it to him, or served it to him as an ingredient in something else.
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with meshe gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
Adam knew exactly what tree it came from, and God knew Adam knew.
no no, not ot, the torah. it doesn't seem to use "soul" or "spirit" the same way modern christendom does.
Could you give some examples? I am not an expert on the bible, but what I have read in my studies so far, seem to match. The OT, and NT refer to soul and spirit in the same manor.
i don't think that's what it means. when it describes god breathing into adam, that's the process by which he becomes alive. so god's breath = life.
YEs I agree, I should have said we are all born BY the breath of life, not WITH the breath of life. Would have been clearer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by arachnophilia, posted 06-22-2005 3:01 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by arachnophilia, posted 06-22-2005 8:08 AM riVeRraT has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 247 of 302 (218628)
06-22-2005 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by riVeRraT
06-22-2005 7:13 AM


Re: Dead Spirits
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with meshe gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
Adam knew exactly what tree it came from, and God knew Adam knew.
after he ate, sure. i think adam did know. i'm just saying the text can actually be read either way.
Could you give some examples? I am not an expert on the bible, but what I have read in my studies so far, seem to match. The OT, and NT refer to soul and spirit in the same manor.
quote:
Gen 12:13 Say, I pray thee, thou [art] my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
quote:
Gen 46:22 These [are] the sons of Rachel, which were born to Jacob: all the souls [were] fourteen.
the same word is rendered "creature" during genesis 1 (those are all "souls") and "persons" or "person" or "self." it doesn't seem to be referring to anything separate from the body. similarly, "spirit" seems to refer to mind, unless it means "spirit of god."
YEs I agree, I should have said we are all born BY the breath of life, not WITH the breath of life. Would have been clearer.
well, no you're missing it. life=breath=soul. it's all the same word in hebrew. everything that's alive has the breath of god in it. it's a very literal, physical thing. if you're literally alive, you have it.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by riVeRraT, posted 06-22-2005 7:13 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by riVeRraT, posted 06-22-2005 8:32 AM arachnophilia has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 248 of 302 (218632)
06-22-2005 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by arachnophilia
06-22-2005 8:08 AM


Re: Dead Spirits
well, no you're missing it. life=breath=soul. it's all the same word in hebrew. everything that's alive has the breath of god in it. it's a very literal, physical thing. if you're literally alive, you have it.
So in your opinion, what does it mean to be born again? What does this verse mean? :
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
There is obviously 2 kinds of seed.
I have experienced this in my life.
Oh here is a verse that separates mans soul, from Gods spirit:
Proverbs 20:27
27 The lamp of the LORD searches the spirit of a man ;
it searches out his inmost being.
I think there is a difference beteen soul, and spirit.
Breath of life, and spirit of God. Heart and mind.
after he ate, sure. i think adam did know. i'm just saying the text can actually be read either way.
I don't think it can be read the other way, but if you say so, then you must have read it that way, so it is possible then. But as a child, without anyone telling what it meant, I always felt that Adam knew what he was doing from reading the story. Maybe he felt is was ok, since the woman gave it to him, and God put the woman there.
He does blame God to a point by saying the woman you put here gave it to me.
He blames everyone except himself, even though I think he knew. Typical man, lol.
Only the strong can admit their mistakes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by arachnophilia, posted 06-22-2005 8:08 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by arachnophilia, posted 06-23-2005 1:10 PM riVeRraT has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 249 of 302 (218653)
06-22-2005 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by riVeRraT
06-22-2005 7:04 AM


Re: Dead Spirits
riVeRraT writes:
Why do you pick and choose quotes from Jesus?
Because there isn't room here for all of them. I choose the ones that are most appropriate.
He also said what we do here on earth is building up treasures in heaven. And that he is preparing a place for us. So if you believe one thing he says, why not the other?
Exactly. What we do here on earth, in this life, is what is important. And Jesus is preparing the next life for us, we are not. Your own quotes confirm exactly what I was saying.
And don't try to figure out what I believe or don't believe. You're not very good at it.
Exactly how do you know that "He wasn't continuing any metaphor"?
Well aince he didn't give a specific age of a child, it could mean many different things. We have to study all the other things he says to see what it is about a child that he wants us to mimic.
Instead of "studying other things", why don't we just read what He said? He said we must be like a child. Period. You're just trying to read other things into it to change the simple meaning, to twist it for your own purpose.
I think children, in the later stages of life have a simple desire to live life in a pleasing loving manor.
And isn't that exactly what Jesus wants us to do?
I think Jesus is mostly refering to dropping all the hurt in your life....
But that isn't what He said, is it?
Children tend to take "hurts" more seriously than adults do, and "hurts" received in childhood are more likely to stay with you. On the subject of "hurts", it would seem that we should be less like children, not more.
I don't know why you are mentioning trumpeting faith, it has nothing to do with what I said.
It's not what you're talking about. It's what you're doing. It's like whistling in the dark.
Many are called, but few are choosen
Exactly. We are called by God. We are chosen by God.
It is not based on what he decides, it is based on our faith
Nonsense. God calls. God chooses. God decides, not you. No supreme act of faith on your part will change what God has decided.
Jesus said we could move mountains with our faith.
Moving mountains is a small feat compared to finding God. You could rearrange every mountain range on earth before you could find God by looking for Him. Much easier to let Him find you.
I can see alreeady things in your life, the way you live, that were caused by hurts in your life, all the work of the devil.
So, what exactly can you see about "the way I live"? Been peeking in my windows? Or are you just making stuff up?
For one, your hatred of dogma.
So hatred of dogma is a bad thing, in your world? Does that mean that dogma is a good thing, in your world?
I do not know you very well, so I could be wrong. But if you are in a place that is actually where Jesus doesn't want you to be, then the devil is happy, and would leave you alone.
That's right, you don't know me very well. So don't speculate about where Jesus wants me to be or whether I am making the devil happy.
Infants don't know much of anything.... Maybe you feel God when you look at them, but they don't
"Knowing God" is not an intellectual thing. Children have the "breath" (= "spirit") of God in them from birth. How do you think we can see God in their eyes if He isn't in there?
But that "breath" was the only thing that God breathed into Adam. If Adam had "the Spirit of God" in him, where else did it come from?
Most likely from walking with God in the garden, and learning from him.
Now you're making up stuff again. You're claiming that Adam "learned" the Spirit of God?
Adam lost the spirit when he ate the fruit.
Chapter and verse?
Adam was born knowing good.
Actually, no. Adam did not "know good" until he learned to distinguish it from evil, after he ate the fruit. Does Genesis actually say that nothing "evil" happened to Adam before he ate the fruit? He just didn't know it was evil.
emptying yourself is not a bad idea, except that some people are incapable of doing that. It is only with the help of God that some of us can start to do it.
You're all over the place here. First you say that you have to choose God, and than you say that you can't do it without God's help.
What you have to do is empty yourself of all the wrong ideas that you have about God. You have to clear the junk away from the door before you can open it to let Him in.
There is no one exclusive way to finding God.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by riVeRraT, posted 06-22-2005 7:04 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2005 8:39 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 250 of 302 (218726)
06-22-2005 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by arachnophilia
06-22-2005 1:29 AM


Re: let's just change what the bible says.
arachnophilia writes:
... the serpent used eve to get to adam. not vice-versa.
@#$% gay serpent!
About that poll: Freud and I would say, "Sometimes a snake is just a snake."

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by arachnophilia, posted 06-22-2005 1:29 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by arachnophilia, posted 06-23-2005 1:06 PM ringo has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 251 of 302 (218908)
06-23-2005 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by ringo
06-22-2005 11:08 AM


Re: Dead Spirits
riVeRraT writes:
Why do you pick and choose quotes from Jesus?
Because there isn't room here for all of them. I choose the ones that are most appropriate
That does not give you liscense to take them out of context.
Exactly. What we do here on earth, in this life, is what is important. And Jesus is preparing the next life for us, we are not. Your own quotes confirm exactly what I was saying.
What we do here on earth, in this life is important why?
And don't try to figure out what I believe or don't believe. You're not very good at it
Thats my point, no one can figure out what you believe because you contradict yourself, and pick and choose bible verses to suite your needs, and create your own God. You even take half of the sentence and ignore the second half. You do not have some sort of secret mind that no one can figure out. Plus God is the only one besides yourself that really knows you, he's the only one you'll have to answer to.
Instead of "studying other things", why don't we just read what He said? He said we must be like a child. Period. You're just trying to read other things into it to change the simple meaning, to twist it for your own purpose.
Um what?
Thats what you are doing. Hello, look in the mirror.
If I take that statement "be like a child" It could mean a thousand different things. 900 of those things will not be biblical, or match anything else the Jesus was trying to teach us. Those are the ones you seem to choose. I try not to use the quote "be like a child" unless it coinsides with the rest of Jesus's teachings. I have backed that up throughout this thread, and you have not. You taylor that phrase to suite your needs, and your way of thinking. Very fleshy
I think children, in the later stages of life have a simple desire to live life in a pleasing loving manor.
And isn't that exactly what Jesus wants us to do?
Oh if life were that simple. Your view of a child is either narrowminded, or you only choose to look at certain aspects of a child. Many children suffer greatly, and cause harm to others. Does Jesus want us to be like that too? Don't we have to clarify what Jesus means when he says be like a child? Does he mean be like Adam? To what extent. We could start a whole other thread just on this concept, and we could relate that statement to the rest of the bible.
I think Jesus is mostly refering to dropping all the hurt in your life....
But that isn't what He said, is it?
Children tend to take "hurts" more seriously than adults do, and "hurts" received in childhood are more likely to stay with you. On the subject of "hurts", it would seem that we should be less like children, not more.
Right, so this is why I am clarifying that I think Jesus means before the hurts start. This is all assuming that the child was raised in a biblical loving manor.
Hurts do not affect you later, becasue you have made oaths in your life to not allow the hurts to enter you to deeply. But they can also be the straw that breaks the camels back.
Forgiving people, wipes the slate clean. Then you are fresh to get hurt all over again. I am not talking about forgiving people with your mind, but with your heart. Once you know the Holy Spirit, the spirit of truth, then you walk with the truth in your life, and it is then hard for you to get fooled, and be taken to the point of being hurt. as long as you seek God in everything you do. So God protects us. This is all part of being born again, and starting a new life, and a new way of thinking.
You might call it fundie dogma, or whatever. But the truth is being disguised from you. From some people who are not worthy, it might be just that, a big lie, a part of their own agenda, but other people are genuine. The only way to know is by asking God, and having a relationship with him. We cannot, and should not rely on humans, as we are all flawed.
This moral is shown in the very story of Genesis.
It's not what you're talking about. It's what you're doing. It's like whistling in the dark.
If you feel that I am trumpeting my faith, then you are being convicted by the Holy Spirit, because I lack the faith I desire. I am not worthy of anything.
Many are called, but few are choosen
Exactly. We are called by God. We are chosen by God.
There you go only taking part of the sentence again. You have to choose to follow God, before God will choose you.
The harvest is full, but the workers are few.
Nonsense. God calls. God chooses. God decides, not you. No supreme act of faith on your part will change what God has decided.
Of well there went free will out the window. I guess you don't believe in that either. We are not in control right? That way of thinking is about as bad as fundie dogma.
Moving mountains is a small feat compared to finding God. You could rearrange every mountain range on earth before you could find God by looking for Him. Much easier to let Him find you.
I completely disagree. Have you found God? Have you moved mountains? Have you tried either?
God is huge, but he is small, he is everything the alpha, the omega, our faith needs to match that before we can move a mountain. But it is not necssary to find him, or to start a building up of your faith. There are many stumbling blocks along the way, plus we have to contend with our lives.
So, what exactly can you see about "the way I live"? Been peeking in my windows? Or are you just making stuff up?
The way you live is represented by this statement. You said it with an angry face. Why? There is obviously anger and hatred in your life. Whether its towards me or people who you think are like me. Something that would be blasted away if you ever came face to face with the creator. People die in his presence, why, because of just that. I am not claiming anything more than what your responses have generated. Your words speak for themselves.
Please tell the forum again how the devil has not bothered you in years. You have not one thing bad happen to you. There has been no attacks on your innocents? Share with us your secret of life, so that we all my come to find the peace. We could start another thread on it.
You say the devil has not bothered you, is that because you don't believe in him, or that you do, and know some secret to keep him away?
You are the one boasting things around here, but claim that I am boasting my faith, like it makes a difference in the over all scheme of things.
I garuantee that you walk with strongholds in your life, and live by oaths. I think we all do, whether we realize or not.
This all stems from what happened inthe garden. We now have to seek God to get to our own personal Eden, where we can walk with him. We have to go through the tests. Adam and Eve started a dominoe affect. Or it was God's will for us. So yea we can blame God for everything, but I am starting to see the purpose for it, and it all comes from love for us.
Does anyone here know pure love?
That's right, you don't know me very well. So don't speculate about where Jesus wants me to be or whether I am making the devil happy
That is why I said "if". Calm down grasshopper, theres no need to get upset if your clean. Why did you miss the word "if"?
"Knowing God" is not an intellectual thing. Children have the "breath" (= "spirit") of God in them from birth. How do you think we can see God in their eyes if He isn't in there?
The breath of life (spirit) and the spirit of God are 2 different things. Thats is what WE have been trying to tell you.
Please explain to us the difference between the lamp of GOd, and mans innermost being in this verse:
Proverbs 20:27
The lamp of the LORD searches the spirit of a man [ Or The spirit of man is the LORD 's lamp ] ; it searches out his inmost being.
Now you're making up stuff again. You're claiming that Adam "learned" the Spirit of God?
Making stuff up? A child could see that Adam obviously spent time with God in the garden. THe bible says he walked with him. Unless Adam was made knowing everything, then he must have learned from God, and experienced his spirit in his fullness on a daily basis. How can you not see this?
Adam lost the spirit when he ate the fruit.
Chapter and verse?
Well according to your own words, God's breath is the breath of life=spirit, and Adam was not allowed to eat from the tree of life=spirit. He was deprived of the very breath that gives us life, the lamp of the Lord, the Holy spirit, the spirit of God, his daily presence. Hence he died a spiritual death that day. IT is obvious, because it is still the same today.
Does Genesis actually say that nothing "evil" happened to Adam before he ate the fruit? He just didn't know it was evil.
Not sure if it did or didn't.
I would think that bad things may have happened to him, i.e. cut finger or whatever, but evil? He had the full protection of God.
But on the other hand, serpents deception was evil, and it happened to him, and like you said it didn't know it was evil, until after he ate the fruit. Or he didn't know evil, until he choose to be disobedient to God. This is true today, when we are disobedient to GOd, evil is then allowed to enter our lives. He was told that it would be bad. I think he knew the difference between bad and good, but not good and evil. There is nothing there that says he didn't know bad, only evil. God told him he would die. That sounds bad to me, so he must have known bad.
Just like a child who treis to stick his finger in the socket, and you tell him no. The realization that happens after he sticks his finger in the socket, is probably something close to what Adam experienced.
We could punish our kids, and they might learn to listen next time, but probably not. They more than likely be disobedient again. It will take many more times before they start to listen. Some people never get it. This is just like seeking God.
Everything in this life can relate to one another. It's only scientists who study God's creations that have a hard time relating stuff, because they do not always have all the clues/evidence/answers.
This is not a stab at science, but a reality. I love science, but I do not pretend that it knows all the answers, and most realistic scientists would agree.
You're all over the place here. First you say that you have to choose God, and than you say that you can't do it without God's help.
What you have to do is empty yourself of all the wrong ideas that you have about God. You have to clear the junk away from the door before you can open it to let Him in.
I am not all over the place here. Iam saying that I do not know what it takes for an individual to find God. I only know what it took me. I can share that, and hope that it helps people, but thats it.
I did not have to empty myself to find God. I was relatively happy with my life when he came to me. I was casually seeking him though.
For other people, they have to hit rock bootom, and be lying in a gutter, before they find him.
For other people, an Angel can come to them and tell them.
I would think that most people expereince an emptying once they find God, not before they find him. But I just don't know for sure.Most testimonys I hear go that way. It is the realization of his existance, the presence of the Holy Spirit filling you up with his glory that emptys you.
Just like you agreeed with me, there is no exclusive way of finding God.
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 06-23-2005 08:41 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by ringo, posted 06-22-2005 11:08 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by ringo, posted 06-23-2005 12:15 PM riVeRraT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 252 of 302 (218967)
06-23-2005 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by riVeRraT
06-23-2005 8:39 AM


Re: Dead Spirits
You know, your posts make a lot more sense when you're not being defensive. I don't have time to respond to all of your accusations, but I'll try to make some sense of the muddle.
riVeRraT writes:
Why do you pick and choose quotes from Jesus?
Because there isn't room here for all of them. I choose the ones that are most appropriate
That does not give you liscense to take them out of context.
That's just an empty accusation unless you show what I have taken out of context and why the context is important.
What we do here on earth, in this life is important why?
Why do you think God gave us six commandments about how to treat each other and only four about how to treat Him? Why do you think Jesus said, "Do unto others...." if it isn't important what we do here on earth?
... no one can figure out what you believe because you contradict yourself, and pick and choose bible verses to suite your needs....
You don't have to speak for everybody else. If anybody else has a problem figuring out what I believe, they're welcome to ask.
You do not have some sort of secret mind that no one can figure out.
See, here's what I mean about you contradicting yourself. First you say nobody can figure me out and then you say they can, in the same paragraph.
Chill, man. No need to attack everything.
-------------
Now, down to business:
If I take that statement "be like a child" It could mean a thousand different things. 900 of those things will not be biblical, or match anything else the Jesus was trying to teach us.
On the other hand, if I take that statement "be like a child", it could mean... "be like a child". You're adding complications by trying to figure out what Jesus was "trying to teach us". Don't ignore what He said.
I try not to use the quote "be like a child" unless it coinsides with the rest of Jesus's teachings.
Are you saying that Jesus contradicted Himself? He plainly said that we have to be like children to get into heaven. Where does that not coincide with the rest of His teachings?
Many children suffer greatly, and cause harm to others. Does Jesus want us to be like that too?
We are like that. When Jesus tells us to be like children, He wants us to emphasize the child-like qualities, not erase our past.
(This is not rocket science, is it? If any of the lurkers can't understand it, I hope they'll ask for clarification. )
I have backed that up throughout this thread, and you have not. You taylor that phrase to suite your needs, and your way of thinking.
As always, I leave it to the "peanut gallery" to decide who has backed what up. If anybody else wants to take me to task, they are free to do so.
Hurts do not affect you later, becasue you have made oaths in your life to not allow the hurts to enter you to deeply.
"Hurts do not affect you later"? I'm pretty sure they do.
And what do you mean by "you have made oaths in your life"? (This is just a question. No need to be defensive. I just don't know what you mean by that.)
God calls. God chooses. God decides, not you. No supreme act of faith on your part will change what God has decided.
Of well there went free will out the window. I guess you don't believe in that either. We are not in control right?
I never said we don't have free will. That's a thorny issue that others have tried to hash out with limited success.
I said that God chooses us before we choose Him. Do you seriously think you can choose God if He doesn't want to be chosen by you?
Our control does not supercede God's control.
Have you found God?
Was He lost?
Have you moved mountains?
A little bit at a time, with a shovel.
If you want to turn this into a pissing contest, show us on the map the ones you've moved.
There is obviously anger and hatred in your life. Whether its towards me or people who you think are like me. Something that would be blasted away if you ever came face to face with the creator.
The pissing contest continues?
Who do the lurkers think shows more anger? You or me? I use one angry face and you jump on that. How many smilie faces have I used?
Your words speak for themselves.
Yes, I hope everybody else can understand the bits that you don't.
Please tell the forum again how the devil has not bothered you in years.
To the Forum: The devil has not bothered me in years.
(He seems to hang out mostly in fundy churches.)
You have not one thing bad happen to you.
I take responsibility for most of the bad things that have happened to me.
Share with us your secret of life, so that we all my come to find the peace.
Been doing that. Read the thread.
You say the devil has not bothered you, is that because you don't believe in him, or that you do, and know some secret to keep him away?
The SecretTM is (write this down): The devil can't touch you unless you let him.
God chooses us. But the devil can only be chosen by us. (Ooooh. Sooo profound. ) Read the book of Job.
Why did you miss the word "if"?
Suppose I said, "If riVeRraT wasn't a child molester, he'd be a pretty nice guy." Is the "if" really important in that sentence?
It's called a "left-handed insult" - maybe you've heard of it. Pardon me for catching you.
The breath of life (spirit) and the spirit of God are 2 different things. Thats is what WE have been trying to tell you.
Who's "WE"? You and Mr. Science Fiction Mr. Ex Nihilo?
Maybe if you'd show instead of just telling....
Unless Adam was made knowing everything, then he must have learned from God, and experienced his spirit in his fullness on a daily basis.
Wait a minute. I asked you if you believe that Adam "learned" the Spirit of God. Yes or no?
I am not all over the place here. Iam saying that I do not know what it takes for an individual to find God.
Step 1: Give up the notion that God is lost. When He wants you He'll find you.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2005 8:39 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by arachnophilia, posted 06-23-2005 1:22 PM ringo has replied
 Message 259 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2005 8:22 PM ringo has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 253 of 302 (218989)
06-23-2005 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by ringo
06-22-2005 4:24 PM


Re: let's just change what the bible says.
About that poll: Freud and I would say, "Sometimes a snake is just a snake."
hahaha.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by ringo, posted 06-22-2005 4:24 PM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 06-27-2005 8:07 PM arachnophilia has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 254 of 302 (218994)
06-23-2005 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by riVeRraT
06-22-2005 8:32 AM


Re: Dead Spirits
So in your opinion, what does it mean to be born again? What does this verse mean? :
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
not sure. doesn't seem to fit with the attitude of whoever wrote genesis.
But as a child, without anyone telling what it meant, I always felt that Adam knew what he was doing from reading the story.
that is the general impression most people take. people also seem to think it's an apple, too. which it's not. technically, the bible doesn't say.
He blames everyone except himself, even though I think he knew. Typical man, lol.
Only the strong can admit their mistakes.
eve blames the serpent.
who does the serpent blame?

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by riVeRraT, posted 06-22-2005 8:32 AM riVeRraT has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 255 of 302 (218999)
06-23-2005 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by ringo
06-23-2005 12:15 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
The devil has not bothered me in years.
(He seems to hang out mostly in fundy churches.)
i'll agree to that. been to many myself.
The SecretTM is (write this down): The devil can't touch you unless you let him.
God chooses us. But the devil can only be chosen by us. (Ooooh. Sooo profound. ) Read the book of Job.
i'm not sure job backs your point. satan clearly chooses job, and job just merely continues to choose god (speaking of chapters 1 and 2). job is rewarded for his faith at end. satan DOES harm job, his family, and his property. but the effects are nullified at the end by god's reward.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by ringo, posted 06-23-2005 12:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 06-23-2005 1:48 PM arachnophilia has replied

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