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Author Topic:   The location of the Tree of Life
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 256 of 302 (219008)
06-23-2005 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by arachnophilia
06-23-2005 1:22 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
arachnophilia writes:
satan clearly chooses job, and job just merely continues to choose god
Well, what I meant was that God chose to test Job first, and then Job chose God over Satan.
In terms of "salvation", I don't think the book of Job says Who chose whom first. (But notice my subtle use of capitalization? )
And of course, in the book of Job, Satan was a tool of God, not an "adversary".

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by arachnophilia, posted 06-23-2005 1:22 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by arachnophilia, posted 06-23-2005 1:56 PM ringo has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 257 of 302 (219015)
06-23-2005 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by ringo
06-23-2005 1:48 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
Well, what I meant was that God chose to test Job first, and then Job chose God over Satan.
no no, satan brought the test up to god. it was satan's choice who to test.
And of course, in the book of Job, Satan was a tool of God, not an "adversary".
it's read both ways. and technically, satan WAS the adversary. it's what his name means. he's just job's adversary, not god's, in the standard jewish reading. in the christian reading, he's trying to compete with god (like on a bet) and is therefor god's adversary too. (but i don't read it that way)

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 06-23-2005 1:48 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by ringo, posted 06-23-2005 2:21 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 264 by ramoss, posted 06-24-2005 4:22 PM arachnophilia has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 258 of 302 (219024)
06-23-2005 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by arachnophilia
06-23-2005 1:56 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
arachnophilia writes:
... satan WAS the adversary. it's what his name means. he's just job's adversary, not god's....
Kind of like God's "dark side"?
satan brought the test up to god. it was satan's choice who to test.
Like God didn't know who Satan would choose?
That's why I said:
quote:
God chose to test Job first
I'm thinking in terms of God being in control of the whole situation.
-------------
But your point is well taken: the book of Job is not such a good example after all.
riVeRraT: Please don't read the book of Job just to prove me wrong. Arachnophilia has already done that. (And I'm still alive. )

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by arachnophilia, posted 06-23-2005 1:56 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by arachnophilia, posted 06-23-2005 11:49 PM ringo has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 259 of 302 (219130)
06-23-2005 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by ringo
06-23-2005 12:15 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
That's just an empty accusation unless you show what I have taken out of context and why the context is important.
Well I have been, but you don't agree, its fine.
Why do you think God gave us six commandments about how to treat each other and only four about how to treat Him? Why do you think Jesus said, "Do unto others...." if it isn't important what we do here on earth?
You didn't answer the question. I said why is it important. I did not ask you if it was or was not important.
You don't have to speak for everybody else. If anybody else has a problem figuring out what I believe, they're welcome to ask.
You do not have some sort of secret mind that no one can figure out.
See, here's what I mean about you contradicting yourself. First you say nobody can figure me out and then you say they can, in the same paragraph.
Chill, man. No need to attack everything.
One second your angry, next your laughing pretending to be all cool. mmmm?
1 People have been asking you
2 no one can figure you because you contradict yourself
3 If you were more consistant, we could figure you out, or if you stayed on track with your thoughts.
4 I am not attacking you, just talking to you.
On the other hand, if I take that statement "be like a child", it could mean... "be like a child". You're adding complications by trying to figure out what Jesus was "trying to teach us". Don't ignore what He said.
You just blow my mind away.
Ok then I will act just like a child, and that will get me into heaven then. Please say yes, so I can demostrate what the children of the world are doing today, please.
Or you can explain to us, what he meant by saying we must be like children.
Which one is it?
Are you saying that Jesus contradicted Himself? He plainly said that we have to be like children to get into heaven. Where does that not coincide with the rest of His teachings?
Answer my previous question and we can go from there.
I never said it doesn't coinside with the rest of teachings, I said the meaning of that statement must coinside with his teachings, or else you are taking it out of context.
Many children suffer greatly, and cause harm to others. Does Jesus want us to be like that too?
We are like that. When Jesus tells us to be like children, He wants us to emphasize the child-like qualities, not erase our past.
*blink*
You can't be serious are you?
You really think that?
Jesus wants us to harm others?
whew, I need a drink.
"Hurts do not affect you later"? I'm pretty sure they do.
And what do you mean by "you have made oaths in your life"? (This is just a question. No need to be defensive. I just don't know what you mean by that.)
Ok let me rephrase that one, I was not clear enough.
Hurts do not affect you later, meaning the hurts you recieve later in life. The ones you recieve early certainly affect you more. We grow cold, and hard later in life, so when we get hurt, comparing apples to apples, it doesn't hurt as much, as we have grown and are better equiped to handle, and or reject it.
Oaths in our lives, example:
A girl you go out with breaks up with you and hurts your feelings. You forgive her, but then you say, I will never let a girl do that to me again. You have just closed the door to your heart. You may wind up rejecting people before they even get a chance to get close to you. Jesus was not like this. I don't think he wants us to be like that either.
If we truely give the problem to God, then we don't have to make an oath about it.
This kind of oath to yourself thing, happens on many levels, with many different subjects. It can start from when you are a child.
I said that God chooses us before we choose Him. Do you seriously think you can choose God if He doesn't want to be chosen by you?
Our control does not supercede God's control.
There is a gray area in our way of looking at it. I kind of agree with you, as I stated before, that coming to God is not merely a human effort, God has something to do with it. However, this does not get rid of the faith factor.
Have you found God?
Was He lost?
Have you moved mountains?
A little bit at a time, with a shovel.
If you want to turn this into a pissing contest, show us on the map the ones you've moved.
Funny how you keep missing my point, but I will take the time to explain it to you.
Was he lost? Do you have a personal relationship with God. I am asking, because I don't think you even claim if you believe in God or not, so I was curious.
I have not moved any mountains.
What I wanted to ask you, is have you tried?
Have you ever stood at the base of a mountain and tried to move it with your faith?
There is a reason for asking, not to put you down if it didn't move, but to point out to you all the things that went through your head when you did try. This the test of our faith in action, and deepest thoughts about God will come out at that moment.
Who do the lurkers think shows more anger? You or me? I use one angry face and you jump on that. How many smilie faces have I used?
Who cares what the lurkers think, and who cares what I think. You only have to worry about God. The smiley faces are sometimes almost sarcastic. But I like them. I am unaffected by them or the angry face. I think that even though we have a difference of opinion, that we posess the capability to get along. I am cool with you bro.
To the Forum: The devil has not bothered me in years.
(He seems to hang out mostly in fundy churches.)
There is a lot to be said about this statement, please correct me if I am wrong.
You seem to throw the word fundie a lot, as if it was meant to talk down to people who claim to be, or who are but don't know it.
It is a put down, the way you use it.
You are also judging all those churches, so in one fell swoop, you ahve just judged thousands of people. Way to go!
The really really sad part is that you are right about the "fundie" churches. I went to several before I got lucky and found one were the people seem genuine, and full of love. It is a leader building church, and a church that will help you develop your spiritual gifting to its fullest potential.
The other half of it is, that yes the devil hangs out in church big time. He praises God every Sunday. Now get ready for the harsh words....He is there because of people like you.....What you say?
Yep, you reconize that he is there, and instead of going in there, and getting him out, you stay home, and let the devil reign in the church, where he can do the most harm to people.
So you have this incredible ability to see this happening, and yet do nothing about it, you are only looking out for yourself, and ignoring "the least of my brethren"
Well I said it, now you can tear me up.
Suppose I said, "If riVeRraT wasn't a child molester, he'd be a pretty nice guy." Is the "if" really important in that sentence?
It's called a "left-handed insult" - maybe you've heard of it. Pardon me for catching you.
I am sorry but I do not find the usefulness of lefthand insults in an intelligent conversation.
If riverrat was, but hes not, so its cool.
You did not catch me. Maybe your defensive?
Who's "WE"? You and Mr. Science Fiction Mr. Ex Nihilo
Now that was funny
I actually laughed out loud, not because I agree with you, just because I saw the humor in it.
Wait a minute. I asked you if you believe that Adam "learned" the Spirit of God. Yes or no?
Not sure really.
But I wouldn't compare him to a baby, but then again you could. ITs not clear to me.
Did Adam have a belly button?
Step 1: Give up the notion that God is lost. When He wants you He'll find you.
God calls us all the time. I see that now in my life. I just did not find him, or seek him enough for whatever reason. It was the time I needed to take to find him.
I never said he was lost, bad analogy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by ringo, posted 06-23-2005 12:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 06-23-2005 9:54 PM riVeRraT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 260 of 302 (219147)
06-23-2005 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by riVeRraT
06-23-2005 8:22 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
riVeRraT writes:
Why do you think God gave us six commandments about how to treat each other and only four about how to treat Him? Why do you think Jesus said, "Do unto others...." if it isn't important what we do here on earth?
You didn't answer the question. I said why is it important.
I thought I implied fairly clearly: It's important because God thinks it's important. (Why do you think that's important to this topic? )
Or you can explain to us, what he meant by saying we must be like children.
Read my lips: He meant what He said:
quote:
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
This is not rocket science. He said what He said. He meant what He said. If you think He meant something else, tell us what, and back it up.
I said the meaning of that statement must coinside with his teachings, or else you are taking it out of context.
I repeat: Show us where I'm taking it out of context.
You really think that?
Jesus wants us to harm others?
If you'll read what I said:
quote:
When Jesus tells us to be like children, He wants us to emphasize the child-like qualities, not erase our past.
Where did I say anything about harming others?
*blink*
You can't be serious are you?
Nice imitation of Rrhain.
Funny how you keep missing my point....
Or is your point missing me? The onus is on you to throw your point, not on me to catch it.
Do you have a personal relationship with God. I am asking, because I don't think you even claim if you believe in God or not, so I was curious.
Continue being curious.
I don't like the term "personal relationship with God" any more than I like the term "born again". Both of them are meaningless - but that's not the topic.
Have you ever stood at the base of a mountain and tried to move it with your faith?
I have faith in my shovel.
Who cares what the lurkers think....
I do. Why do you think I'm wearing out my keyboard?
You seem to throw the word fundie a lot... It is a put down, the way you use it.
Yes. That is my intention.
You are also judging all those churches, so in one fell swoop, you ahve just judged thousands of people.
Do you know the difference between a judge and a jury? The jury decides what is true and what is false. The judge decides what to do about it.
I'm "jurying" the fundies, not judging them. I have no power to pass sentence.
... the devil hangs out in church big time... He is there because of people like you.... you reconize that he is there, and instead of going in there, and getting him out, you stay home, and let the devil reign in the church, where he can do the most harm to people.
The devil can do the most harm to people in church? With all the buckets of faith in there? Quite frankly, that never occured to me before.
What I meant was that the fundies invite him in, and worship him by making him seem more powerful than he is.
The reason he isn't out here is because he's afraid of me.
... you are only looking out for yourself, and ignoring "the least of my brethren"
Well, I'm trying to rescue you. (And maybe a lurker or two.)
You say you've been a Christian for a whopping 1.5 years. I was at that stage when I was barely old enough to read. Wait a few decades before you try to tell me that I don't understand what you understand.
I think that even though we have a difference of opinion, that we posess the capability to get along. I am cool with you bro.
Fair enough.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2005 8:22 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2005 7:39 AM ringo has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 261 of 302 (219188)
06-23-2005 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by ringo
06-23-2005 2:21 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
Kind of like God's "dark side"?
more or less. that's the traditional judaic side of things. satan does god's dirt work: tempting souls.
Like God didn't know who Satan would choose?
That's why I said: "God chose to test Job first"
well, it's an interesting point. if god is omniscent, he did know. and that essentially makes the choice his from the very beginning. or, more literally, god chose for the book of job to be written, and it was written with intent of edifying faith, so it's safe to say the choice was god's. sort of.
But your point is well taken: the book of Job is not such a good example after all.
or at least not the most clear.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by ringo, posted 06-23-2005 2:21 PM ringo has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 262 of 302 (219244)
06-24-2005 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by ringo
06-23-2005 9:54 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
I thought I implied fairly clearly: It's important because God thinks it's important. (Why do you think that's important to this topic? )
Yes, I know God thinks it's important, and I think it is important. But why does God think it is important?
Why should we?
This is not rocket science. He said what He said. He meant what He said. If you think He meant something else, tell us what, and back it up.
Awesome, youmanaged to take the verse out of context again. Let's look at the full statement now, since I think you do not get it.
Matthew 18:2-4
2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Oh! so we have to humble ourselves like a child, not just be like a child. Kind of goes along with his other teachings about being humble.
He is speaking of being trusting and unpretentious, "like a child"
But then he continues:
5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
So he is not refering to the bad things that children do, as I stated before.
Then he continues on about sin:
"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! 8If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
So now he really is very clear about not sinning. He must be talking about that aspect of a child.
This is what I am saying about the way you interpret the bible. You choose to take the words "be like a child" literally, and ignore the rest of the speech. You can then taylor that saying to whatever suites your needs at that particular moment.
Where did I say anything about harming others?
You didn't, I did, then you agreed.
Here:
I wrote: Many children suffer greatly, and cause harm to others. Does Jesus want us to be like that too?
You respond: We are like that.
Unless you meant something else.
Nice imitation of Rrhain
Yea, I did get it from him, thank God he has been leaving me alone lately. I have seen other people do it too, I just figured it was a forum thingy.
I have faith in my shovel.
Theres more for you.
Do you know the difference between a judge and a jury?
Nothing really. They both judge people based on the evidence.
Does the term group of peers mean anything to you?
I'm "jurying" the fundies, not judging them. I have no power to pass sentence.
Jury:
1 : a body of persons sworn to give a verdict on some matter submitted to them; especially : a body of persons legally selected and sworn to inquire into any matter of fact and to give their verdict according to the evidence
2 : a committee for judging and awarding prizes at a contest or exhibition
The sentence you pass is on your self, for you will be judged in the same manor. There might be more to it than meets the eye. I am not puttting you down for it either.
The devil can do the most harm to people in church? With all the buckets of faith in there? Quite frankly, that never occured to me before.
Hmmmmmm...buckets of faith?
This is what I am talking about. The people in the church are no diffeent than the people outside the church. All will be judged by God. but what purpose does the church serve, if people can't go there and worship God freely, and love each other?
Thats what it is all about, loving God, and loving others, period. If you do not go to church and leave them there to suffer, because they don't get it, then you do not love them. People like you need to be leaders, so that others might get it, how we are supposed to be. It's not easy, that is for sure. I think you would like the church I go to, but it could change. Would I use that as a reason to stop going, or not believe in God, I hope not. I will try to be aware of it. There is somewhat of a movement going amoung churches to battle precisely what your talking about.
You say you've been a Christian for a whopping 1.5 years. I was at that stage when I was barely old enough to read. Wait a few decades before you try to tell me that I don't understand what you understand.
No bro, I was born and raised Catholic. I am 39 years old. Did the catholic church help me to find God?
I was calling myself "Christian all my life" Was I one?
I was even calling myself "born again" from the day I made a declaration in public to accept Jesus as my Lord, some 7 years ago. But was I "born again"?
I recieved a full on baptism of the Holy Spirit 1.5 years ago. From God, not from some prayer or church or whatever. It wasn't until then that I got it.
Do we find God through Genesis? Well for me, I say no. I was fascinated with Genesis, and revelation all those years, but it never helped me to understand who God really is.
(I will never really understand who God really is, he keeps surprising me) It wasn't until I studyed Acts, that I started to comprehend. Catholics pray their whole lives:
"In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" blah blah blah. forever and ever AAAAmen......
Do they even really know what/who the Holy Spirit is?
Some do, but I would say most don't.
Go ahead and ask them.
What do you think the Holy Spirit is?
Have you recieved a baptism of it?
How can you be Christian when you are barely old enough to read? you have such a great understanding of God then? Thats kind of an ignorant statement I think.
Well, I'm trying to rescue you
Thank you, I appreciate your kindness. But I am in a place where I feel just fine. I am a stubborn bastard, hard headed. I wouldn't be anywhere I didn't want to be. I do not feel decieved at all. All I feel is love where I am at. My family and freinds would all agree, that since my transformation, I am a different person, for the better. I have been tweaked by God. I am now using my gifts to gloryfy him, and I am allowed to where I am.
I am not boasting here, but just trying to give you an idea of what I have been doing for the last year and a half.
I have put my 35 years of keyboard experience to use for the Lord, and I am a worship leader at my church already, and we rock out on Sundays.
I have my own small ministry, where we build and fly radio control planes together. How cool is that?
I am Vice president of Hope for the Nations USA, where we help orphans around the world, by making them into tomorrow leaders, so that they may raise up the areas they live in. We even build villages for them to be self sufficient.
I look at these things as job descriptions, not titles. I enjoy it all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 06-23-2005 9:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by ringo, posted 06-24-2005 10:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 263 of 302 (219305)
06-24-2005 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by riVeRraT
06-24-2005 7:39 AM


Re: Dead Spirits
quote:
If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. (Matthew 18:8)
Do you think Jesus meant that literally? How many hands and feet do you have?
And how does cutting off your hands and feet relate to being like a child?
Do you really not see that there is a point where the context logically ends?
But, if you will read my post, you will notice that I was quoting from Mark, not Matthew:
quote:
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
And a little farther down we read:
quote:
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. (Mark 10:19)
Notice that Jesus mentions only what we are supposed to do in earth, in this life.
And a little farther down we read:
quote:
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. (Mark 10:21)
Do you think Jesus meant that literally? Have you given all of your posessions to the poor?
-------------
quote:
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. (Matthew 18:9)
There is something about blindness that I have been wanting to bring up:
You have seen the word "metaphor" spelled correctly many times, and yet you continue to misspell it. You have seen the word "innocence" spelled correctly many times, and yet you continue to misspell it.
I'm not saying that you should be a perfect speller. I'm just using your consistent misspelling as an illustration of how you look at the Bible:
Do you really think your spelling is right and mine is wrong? Or do you just not see that yours is wrong?
Do you really think your Bible interpretation is right and mine is wrong? Or do you just not see that yours is wrong?
quote:
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? (Luke 6:41)
-------------
One last comment:
riVeRraT writes:
How can you be Christian when you are barely old enough to read?
What a sad, sad, sad outlook on Christianity you have.
I'll let Jesus answer your question:
quote:
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2005 7:39 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2005 10:03 PM ringo has replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 602 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 264 of 302 (219374)
06-24-2005 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by arachnophilia
06-23-2005 1:56 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
In the Jewish tradition, angels (including satan) do not have free will. Satan was only doing the job that he was assigned to by God. Shaitan literally means 'the accusor'. From a legalistic point of view, you can view him as the prosecuting attorney. This 'good/bad' duality was adopted from the Persians when the Jews got to babylon.
If you look at it like a trial, you could say that Satan was the prosecuting attorney, while god was the defense attorney, and the evidnece was Job's behavior.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by arachnophilia, posted 06-23-2005 1:56 PM arachnophilia has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 265 of 302 (219452)
06-24-2005 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by ringo
06-24-2005 10:43 AM


Re: Dead Spirits
I was quoting from Mark, not Matthew:
Does that make what Matthew said irrelevant?
Notice that Jesus mentions only what we are supposed to do in earth, in this life.
That’s funny, you say that, then in the next verse you quote, it explains how to build up treasure in heaven.
quote:Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. (Mark 10:21)
Do you think Jesus meant that literally? Have you given all of your posessions to the poor?
He absolutely meant that to him. If Jesus came and said that, I might consider it. If my faith was strong enough. but since Jesus isn't standing in front of me, and no one knows the dates of when he is coming but the Father, then I will live my life like he is coming tomorrow, and 1000 years from now.
I have however elected to stay in business, so I can earn more money and give it to the poor, on a steady basis. I won't go into how much, but it is a considerable amount of time, and money, while still being able to raise a family. I (actually we, my family) do this for the love of God, and the love of people.
You have seen the word "metaphor" spelled correctly many times, and yet you continue to misspell it. You have seen the word "innocence" spelled correctly many times, and yet you continue to misspell it.
I'm not saying that you should be a perfect speller. I'm just using your consistent misspelling as an illustration of how you look at the Bible:
Lmao
I type fast and do not spend the time correcting. I am more of a logical thinker, and mathematician, science too. Spelling was never my strong point, but my reading comprehension always scored excellent.
I have 5 kids, my own business, worship leadership, a small ministry, a charity org, and money more things. You think I have time to spell check?
Do you really think your spelling is right and mine is wrong? Or do you just not see that yours is wrong?
I don't care about spelling, your or mine. I do not use spelling as an indication of how smart a person is. Or is it an indication if he knows God or not. Children are not good spellers, so I am on my way, see ya later.
Do you really think your Bible interpretation is right and mine is wrong? Or do you just not see that yours is wrong?
I think I went over this. Your bible interpretation is fine with me. We are discussing it, which I enjoy thoroughly. In our discussions, it makes me look up verses, and study them in a new light, all the time. This helps me to reinforce and test my faith. To see if what I am believing in is true. So far, so good.
It also allows me to see others points of view, so that when I talk to people, I can better respect how they feel, and maybe help me to understand why they feel.
Your interpretation is exactly where you need to be right now. My only job is to love God, and love others. I would never reject you for what you believe in, that is prejudice. I do not consider myself to be on a different level than you (although you feel you are above my level, because you "went through what I am going through" lol). I consider myself a sinner, and if you commit one sin, then you commit them all, so we are all the same. I do not have to agree with what you believe in, but I will not hate you for it.
If I am right about things, then you will remember it when you learn it, because you walk with the knowledge now. If you are right about things, then when I experience those things and find them to be true, then I will remember it. We will sit down and have a glass of wine in heaven, I hope.
What a sad, sad, sad outlook on Christianity you have.
I'll let Jesus answer your question:
quote:Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
That’s all fine and good, and I understand your point perfectly. But if we read into that verse deeper, you see that the child has to receive heaven. So that means before that point, he does not know what heaven is, as do most children, they are ignorant.
In other words, when you see heaven, you must receive it like a child, not all children know what heaven is.
And yes, we know that the children go to heaven.
PS, you spelled possessions wrong, oops. What does that mean?
Ah, nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by ringo, posted 06-24-2005 10:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by ringo, posted 06-24-2005 11:50 PM riVeRraT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 266 of 302 (219462)
06-24-2005 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by riVeRraT
06-24-2005 10:03 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
riVeRraT writes:
I was quoting from Mark, not Matthew:
Does that make what Matthew said irrelevant?
My point was about context. You criticize me for taking things out of context, then you go to a different book for your context.
And not only that, you get the incident wrong. The incident I refered to in Mark 10 coincides with Matthew 19, not 18.
And not only that, your "context" - whether relevant or not - doesn't make your point. Jesus said that we must be "like children" and you go on about forgiveness. Or do you think children are especially forgiving?
If you have to go to a different book and a different incident and still not make your point, you're not correcting my context. You're grasping at straws.
Notice that Jesus mentions only what we are supposed to do in earth, in this life.
That’s funny, you say that, then in the next verse you quote, it explains how to build up treasure in heaven.
Yes, we build up treasure in heaven by what we do on earth, in this life. What's confusing about that?
If Jesus came and said that, I might consider it.
Jesus did come and say that. Do you need a personal invitation? (Please stop and actually think about that. Don't just give a knee-jerk reaction.)
You think I have time to spell check?
You miss my point again. I said it wasn't about spelling. It's about blindness.
Why do you consistently misspell certain words. Consistency does not suggest carelessness. I was trying to relate your consistent misspelling to your consistent misreading of the Bible (and of me ).
PS, you spelled possessions wrong, oops.
PS, I know. Nice catch. (There goes my sainthood.)
One error in a large number of posts is an honest mistake. A consistent error is a symptom.
Hopefully, somebody lurking will get the points that you miss.
(By the way, I was expecting you to point out the irony in me pointing out the beam in your eye. You should have asked how I could see it past the beam in my own eye. Points off for missed opportunity. )
-------------
So, can we maybe face in the direction of the topic for the next twenty posts or so?
This all started with you claiming that Adam and Eve faced "spiritual death" by eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
I countered by showing that Jesus wants us to be more like children.
My reasoning is that Jesus wants us to be more spiritual to get into heaven. It seems to follow, then, that He thinks children are more spiritual than adults.
On the other hand, you claim that children have "dead spirits" or "unborn spirits" or no spirits at all.
I do not see how you can reconcile that with what Jesus plainly said.
Do you think you can indulge me and, without all the touchy-feely autobiographical stuff, explain what you think Jesus meant by "Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein"?

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2005 10:03 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by riVeRraT, posted 06-25-2005 9:15 AM ringo has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 267 of 302 (219504)
06-25-2005 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by ringo
06-24-2005 11:50 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
My point was about context. You criticize me for taking things out of context, then you go to a different book for your context.
No, we were talking about what Jesus meant when he said, "be like a child" remember? You told me to back it up, and I did. Mark, Matthew, 19-18, is irrelevant. Telling us about what chapter came from where, and why, is making you look like you are reaching for excuses to still and make yourself look right.
And not only that, you get the incident wrong. The incident I referred to in Mark 10 coincides with Matthew 19, not 18.
Yes, in 19 He tells everyone to leave the children alone because the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these. In Verse 18 he explains why it relates to older people like us. In both verses he says we must be like a child to get into heaven, in verse 18 he elaborates a little on the reason why.
Isn't this clear enough for you?
And not only that, your "context" - whether relevant or not - doesn't make your point. Jesus said that we must be "like children" and you go on about forgiveness. Or do you think children are especially forgiving?
Especially forgiving. Lets look at Matthew 18:2-7
quote:
Matthew 18:2-7
2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
7"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!
So all this is part of the same speech, so we could assume that I am not taking anything out of context.
He says be like a child. What specifically? To humble yourself like a child, this will make you great in heaven. Another indication of what we do here on earth is dictating how it will be in heaven for us.
Then he goes on to say that whoever causes the children to sin, it would be better for him to be drowned.
You do know that unforgiveness is a sin right?
Not forgiving someone, is not loving them, the second greatest commandment. If you do not understand that, then maybe you have to learn more about love?
If you have to go to a different book and a different incident and still not make your point,
You told me to back it up. It's your fault.
I think your grasping at straws.
Yes, we build up treasure in heaven by what we do on earth, in this life. What's confusing about that?
Oh, you finally get it.
If Jesus came and said that, I might consider it.
Jesus did come and say that. Do you need a personal invitation? (Please stop and actually think about that. Don't just give a knee-jerk reaction.)
I meant face to face, I am sure you knew that.
I have contemplated that verse a lot. I have given up a lot to follow him. I pray about it. I believe I am doing the right thing in my life concerning that statement.
Pointing that out to me is like pointing the speck in my eye, which would make you a hypocrite.
Why do you consistently misspell certain words. Consistency does not suggest carelessness. I was trying to relate your consistent misspelling to your consistent misreading of the Bible (and of me ).
Because I obviously do not know how to spell well. I admit that. That does not mean that I do not comprehend well.
If you say I am mis-understanding you, then that is fine too, you are probably right. It is through this awesome conversation that we can sort these things out. You seem to be mis-understanding me also.
PS, you spelled possessions wrong, oops.
PS, I know. Nice catch. (There goes my sainthood.)
One error in a large number of posts is an honest mistake. A consistent error is a symptom.
Well that was the first time that I bothered to spell check your words. I find it so funny, that every time someone points out to me that I miss-spell words, that when I go and check the post that they tell me in, there is always a miss-spelled word. I did that to prove a point. We all miss-spell words, and we all are not perfect. Let's not accuse each other of that anymore, it doesn't mean anything. If the miss-spelling causes you to not understand what I am saying, then we need to clear it up.
It goes back to what your saying, do not point out the speck in your brothers eye.
[qs] My reasoning is that Jesus wants us to be more spiritual to get into heaven. It seems to follow, then, that He thinks children are more spiritual than adults.
[/sq]
That’s awesome, really. I am adding to that by saying that the reason why is that, we are to humble ourselves, and bring ourselves back to a state of innocence. To point more Jesus like, were we aren't with corrupt minds, and unforgiving. Those are the aspects of a child that he wants us to mimic.
On the other hand, you claim that children have "dead spirits" or "unborn spirits" or no spirits at all.
The spirit is there, but it is not born yet. Their souls are beautiful and innocent. They are like a sponge ready to absorb whatever is taught to them. Jesus wants us to be like that. Remember he was talking to a bunch of people steep in tradition, and set in their ways. The law was the law. He wanted to show us in where the spirit of the law came from, that is love.
He wanted everyone to reject what they had learned all their lives, and revert back to a childlike state, and start with love.
Look at the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit fell on all of them. What did automatically start doing after that. They sold everything and started helping each other out of love, and they were happy. The were playing together like a bunch of kids.
This probably was the closest thing to how God wants us to live, since the garden.
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 06-25-2005 09:20 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by ringo, posted 06-24-2005 11:50 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 06-25-2005 11:02 AM riVeRraT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 268 of 302 (219516)
06-25-2005 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by riVeRraT
06-25-2005 9:15 AM


Re: Dead Spirits
riVeRraT writes:
My point was about context. You criticize me for taking things out of context, then you go to a different book for your context.
No, we were talking about what Jesus meant when he said, "be like a child" remember?9
You miss my point. Notice where I said My point was about context?
You claimed that I was taking things out of context, but you didn't refer to my context at all. Therefore, you failed to show that my context was wrong.
My point was not about what Jesus said or meant but about whether or not I was taking it out of context.
We all miss-spell words, and we all are not perfect.
You miss my point. I have said - twice now - that it is not about spelling.
Consistent misspelling is not caused by carelessness. Carelessness would cause random misspelling.
The inability to spell is not necessarily related to reading comprehension. But on the other hand, you completely missed two of my major points, so.... Our intelligent readers can draw their own conclusions about your reading comprehension, and mine.
-------------
The spirit is there, but it is not born yet.
That is what I am trying to get you to back up. You keep repeating the assertion. Back it up with chapter and verse.
-------------
Let me recap my position one more time:
1. God breathed His spirit into Adam.
2. Adam is a metaphor for all mankind.
3. Therefore, God breathes His spirit into all mankind.
4. I am saying that He does that at birth because I have seen nothing to indicate otherwise.
5. I am saying that anybody who looks at a child can see the spirit of God in him/her.
6. Jesus said that we must be "like children" to enter heaven.
7. I am saying that He did not pick and choose which attributes of children we should emulate. (Even if He gave some examples, He didn't eliminate anything.)
8. I am assuming that Jesus wants us to be more spiritual, not less.
9. Therefore, I conclude that Jesus thinks that children are more spiritual than adults.
And now, back to our previously scheduled topic:
10. The garden of Eden is a metaphor for heaven. When we go to heaven, we go "back to the garden".
11. To go "back to the garden", we must be "born again" - i.e. we must become "like children".
12. Since Adam and Eve had their spirits "darkened" when they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, being "born again" or becoming "like children" involves having our spirits "awakened".
13. Sub-conclusion: Children do not have an "unborn" spirit, but an enhanced spirit, which we want to get back by being "born again".
14. Adam and Eve had a choice between Knowledge (of Good and Evil) and Life.
15. Metaphorically, we all have that same choice but we are all "doomed" to become conscious of the consequences of our actions. (And that's as close as I'll come to admitting the concept of "original sin".)
16. By being "born again", we undo that choice - i.e. we choose Life instead of Knowledge.
17. Final conclusion (and answer to the OP): The Tree of Life is still where it always was, metaphorically waiting for us to choose it.
So, riVeRrat, you have 33 posts to show our fans where I am wrong. And don't forget the chapter and verse, please.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by riVeRraT, posted 06-25-2005 9:15 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by riVeRraT, posted 06-25-2005 4:47 PM ringo has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 269 of 302 (219590)
06-25-2005 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by ringo
06-25-2005 11:02 AM


Re: Dead Spirits
My point was not about what Jesus said or meant but about whether or not I was taking it out of context.
But you did, and I showed that.
Now your going to have to make me do something which I can't stand, and that is go back and read the thread, and pull out all the little things you said.
You even agreed that being like a child means the bad things too, when I showed that Jesus clearly did not mean that at all.
You miss my point. I have said - twice now - that it is not about spelling.
But it is about spelling. My comprehension is fine, they are 2 different subjects, but I guess you missed MY point.
But on the other hand, you completely missed two of my major points,
Um no, I merely pointed out to you that they are irrelevant, and don't hold water in this discussion. You just chose not to accept that, then accuse me of missing your simple point.
Our intelligent readers can draw their own conclusions about your reading comprehension, and mine.
Again, I do not really care about our "readers" lol. I am talking to you. If anyone else has something to say, let him or her say it.
The spirit is there, but it is not born yet.
That is what I am trying to get you to back up. You keep repeating the assertion. Back it up with chapter and verse.
OMG dude, you are starting to make me wonder.
If you don't understand this verse, then how do you expect to understand the rest of the bible?
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
Just like a mother has all her seeds in her, they aren't born until you do something about it.
Tell us in your own words, what you think that verse means.
Another thing, I have been asking you a lot of questions, yet you do not answer them, what’s up with that?
No as far as your recapped position, that’s fine, but lets make it clear, that it is all your opinion. If it was fact it would be irrefutable. No reasonable doubt. So I am going to quote you, then follow it with a verse that contradicts what your saying, and add some of my own comments. then you can tell me if you position is indeed just your opinion, and is subject to be wrong. Notice, that I am not saying that I am right here.
[qs] 1. God breathed His spirit into Adam.
[/sq]
quote:
7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Breath of life, and spirit can be seen as 2 different things.
It says he breathed the breath of life, not his spirit.
2. Adam is a metaphor for all mankind.
The metaphor ate fruit, and received the breath of life. He also had kids with names. He just might not be a metaphor.
3. Therefore, God breathes His spirit into all mankind.
Objection!!!!
4. I am saying that He does that at birth because I have seen nothing to indicate otherwise.
Objection again!!!!
That’s your opinion. Back it up with a verse.
Here is another verse to see that breath of life, and spirit of God are 2 different things:
quote:
Job 33:4
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
5. I am saying that anybody who looks at a child can see the spirit of God in him/her.
That is when we started to discuss about when Jesus said "be like a child" You seem to think that it means be like the spirit of God, but then agreed that it could mean the bad things too. But Jesus clearly explains why it is necessary to be like a child. You just aren't accepting it, and then go on to say that just because he explains it, doesn't mean he could have meant something else, or that we could just start adding to it. Something you told me not to do, add to the bible, something that you accuse fundie churches, and dogmatic people of doing. So then I told you, that you have created your own dogma, to suite your needs, in other words, made your own God for yourself. Which is fine really, I don't care.
8. I am assuming that Jesus wants us to be more spiritual, not less.
9. Therefore, I conclude that Jesus thinks that children are more spiritual than adults.
Yes, I agree with #8, but not #9, #8 doesn't stem from the phrase " be like a child". To be like a child is to put yourself in a mindset, where you can become more spiritual, not that being like a child automatically makes you more spiritual.
Children do not know anything unless they are taught it. That's another reason why God calls us his children, he wants us to learn, and seek from him.
He also warns us not to disturb this process with sin.
10. The garden of Eden is a metaphor for heaven. When we go to heaven, we go "back to the garden".
This is clearly wrong thinking. Or it is non-biblical, or just your opinion, again.
quote:
Genesis 6:17
I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.
The earth is under the heavens, not in it. There are many more verses that describe this. No where in the bible does it say we go back to the garden, so it is something you are just making up.
quote:
Genesis 2:8
Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.
Eden was on earth, not in the heavens.
East of a metaphor
11. To go "back to the garden", we must be "born again" - i.e. we must become "like children".
Well this almost sounds good, but it is really wrong.
#1 we do not go back to the garden
#2 Yes we must be born again
#3 born again does not mean "be like a child"
Please show me any verse that indicates the correlation between born again, and "be like a child".
I would say however, that you should humble yourself like a child, so that you may become born again. But it is no guarantee.
12. Since Adam and Eve had their spirits "darkened" when they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, being "born again" or becoming "like children" involves having our spirits "awakened".
Take out the "like children" and I agree. The spirit is there, but it is not awake yet, which is separate from the breath of life.
13. Sub-conclusion: Children do not have an "unborn" spirit, but an enhanced spirit, which we want to get back by being "born again".
The difference between a child’s spirit and an adults, is like a sponge without water in it, and one with water in it.
14. Adam and Eve had a choice between Knowledge (of Good and Evil) and Life.
15. Metaphorically, we all have that same choice but we are all "doomed" to become conscious of the consequences of our actions. (And that's as close as I'll come to admitting the concept of "original sin".)
I agree. If that’s the way you want to word it fine. I would just say original sin. But the phrase original sin, does not explain much.
It took me awhile to understand it.
16. By being "born again", we undo that choice - i.e. we choose Life instead of Knowledge.
I don't know. That's not the way it happened for me. I think the way we become born again is as individual, as our individualism. There is a choice involved though.
17. Final conclusion (and answer to the OP): The Tree of Life is still where it always was, metaphorically waiting for us to choose it.
Kind of yes, but that makes Jesus coming down and dying for us just a big scam, useless waste of human flesh.
Maybe we now we have the blessing of being able to choose it, but before Jesus, I do not know how you became born again, or made that choice. There were all those sacrifices to make to be free from sin. Those sacrifices must have represented what could be dear to us humans.
Now we have to give up other things, like ways of this world, which have become very dear to us humans, to follow Christ.
And yes, choose life(eternal), Jesus, the way, the light, the truth.
So, riVeRrat, you have 33 posts to show our fans where I am wrong. And don't forget the chapter and verse, please.
Well I think I have expressed myself quite clearly, and we may never resolve our difference of OPINION, but you keep asking for verses, but then do not post your own, just interject your opinion all the time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 06-25-2005 11:02 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 06-25-2005 6:51 PM riVeRraT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 270 of 302 (219602)
06-25-2005 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by riVeRraT
06-25-2005 4:47 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
riVeRrat writes:
Now your going to have to make me do something which I can't stand, and that is go back and read the thread, and pull out all the little things you said.
Thanks. I'd appreciate that. I've been asking you all along to back up your assertions.
I do not really care about our "readers" lol. I am talking to you.
Well, I do care about them, and I am talking to them, primarily, not to you. (You didn't think I was trying to convince you, did you? ) There are 48 of them, as of this moment, and only one of you. Better odds.
Just like a mother has all her seeds in her, they aren't born until you do something about it.
Just a little nitpick, but a mother has eggs, not seeds. Seed, in the Biblical sense, belongs to the father. And neither the eggs nor the seeds are "born". Maybe you should try lurking in the biology forums once in a while.
quote:
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:22-23)
I hope you don't mind me quoting the whole sentence to get the context.
It says that we purify our souls by loving one another. There is nothing there that remotely, by any stretch of the imagination, says anything about a spirit that is "not born yet". How can something be "born again" if it has not been born yet?
I have been asking you a lot of questions, yet you do not answer them, what’s up with that?
If there's anything I haven't answered, please repeat the question. I have a very short attention span. I am also very old and prone to forget what I was going to say.
... that it is all your opinion.
When have I said otherwise? This is the Faith and Belief forum.
I am going to quote you, then follow it with a verse that contradicts what your saying, and add some of my own comments.
That's what I've been trying to get you to do all along.
It says he breathed the breath of life, not his spirit.
As arachnophilia has shown, in the context of Genesis, the Hebrew word for breath=spirit=soul.
He just might not be a metaphor.
I didn't say Adam was just a metaphor.
Objection!!!!
Uh... where's your Bible verse to back that up?
I am saying that He does that at birth because I have seen nothing to indicate otherwise.
That’s your opinion. Back it up with a verse.
Excuse me? I said "I have seen nothing to indicate otherwise" - i.e. there is no verse that I know of that contraindicates it. Don't ask me to prove a negative.
quote:
The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.(Job 33:4)
That says the same thing. When was I given life? When I was born.
You seem to think that it means be like the spirit of God
No. I think that it means to be like the spirit of man.
But Jesus clearly explains why it is necessary to be like a child. You just aren't accepting it
I'm accepting what He said. You have been asserting that He meant something else, but you fail to back it up. I have said that He could have left out details. But no detail that He didn't mention can contradict what He said.
To be like a child is to put yourself in a mindset, where you can become more spiritual, not that being like a child automatically makes you more spiritual.
Exactly. "Be like a child" = "become more spiritual". Jesus clearly believed that children have more potential for spirituality than adults do. How does that tally with children having "unborn spirits"?
Children do not know anything unless they are taught it. That's another reason why God calls us his children, he wants us to learn, and seek from him.
I keep asking you and I don't get an answer: Do you think we "learn" God's spirit? That's what you seem to be saying.
The earth is under the heavens, not in it.
Did you not see the word "metaphor"?
Going to heaven is metaphorically going back to the garden.
You have agreed that Genesis can be taken metaphorically. I thought you knew what that meant. If you don't, kindly ask instead of going on and on trying to show that a metaphor is not literal. We know a metaphor is not literal. Don't waste our time.
Please show me any verse that indicates the correlation between born again, and "be like a child".
I suppose you know that the phrase "born again" occurs only about three times in the whole Bible (one reason why I don't like it's overuse by "fundies"). So it's not surprizing that none of them actually spells it out.
I wonder why that is?
Could it be because it's so bloody obvious?
"Born again". What is "born"? Babies.
Unless Jesus was telling us to literally become babies, He had to mean we should become like babies.
The spirit is there, but it is not awake yet, which is separate from the breath of life.
You keep asserting that. Back it up.
The difference between a child’s spirit and an adults, is like a sponge without water in it, and one with water in it.
Nice metaphor. I notice you've been falling kind of short on all those verses you were going to quote to prove me wrong. Care to provide one here?
... but that makes Jesus coming down and dying for us just a big scam, useless waste of human flesh.
Human flesh is wasted uselessly all the time. What could make Jesus more human than to be a useless waste of flesh?
Not that I'm saying it was useless. As you might guess, I have my own ideas about Jesus' death - which are pretty much devoid of fundie dogma, as you also might guess. But that is not for this topic.
... you keep asking for verses, but then do not post your own, just interject your opinion all the time.
Have I neglected to post verses when you asked for them? If so, please ask again. I do.
(Maybe some kindly lurker is keeping score. )

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by riVeRraT, posted 06-25-2005 4:47 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by riVeRraT, posted 06-26-2005 7:55 AM ringo has replied

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