messenjaH responds to me:
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And yes, my response is an opinion. A justified opinion. Again, you may not like it, but that doesn't mean it is unjustified.
How does your opinion make sense and how is it justified? See my first response to your opinions.
If you refuse to read my responses, then there is very little point in having a conversation.
Message 19Message 32
Try to remember: It has something to do with taking the other person's opinions into account and realizing that just because you think something doesn't mean it is true.
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But a more sophisticated version of "gift" is that it is something that is pleasing to the person who receives it.
And telling somebody that he is an ignorant fool who is doomed to perish in the afterlife and that you are the one who actually knows the truth, that the person you are talking to can't possibly be mature and intelligent enough to know the truth, no matter how pleasantly you couch the words, is not a gift.
It is an insult.
Again, teacher and student example shows your flaw.
Incorrect. The student is there willingly. The student seeks out the teacher in order to learn something. The teacher does not exploit the suffering of the student: Listen to my spiel or you don't get any food.
Who asked you to "teach"?
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Ask anyone who has been enlightened about Jesus and who truly believes, like a newly saved person in a country where missionaries went, they won't feel disrespected and insulted, they will feel SAVED.
Because they've been
exploited. Think about it for half a second: How grateful would you be to the person who saved your life? You seem to think that the missionaries are going there only with the idea to provide food, clothing, and medicine and that the people there begged them to tell them of their religion rather than their going there with religion on their minds and promising food, clothing, and medicine if they would merely submit to the religious proselytising.
You can break someone's spirit and they'll happily tell you that they're ecstatic.
You still broke their spirit and that is an evil thing to do.
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To know that they are worth more than a lousy existence on this planet,
What makes you think they didn't know that before you came along and told them they weren't?
Let me see if I understand this correctly: You kick someone when they're down, withhold the treatment needed to solve the problem you created until they swear fealty, and then think that theit devotion to you is somehow sincere in origin and not created by desperate circumstances?
By your logic, if I go down to the beach and deliberately knock over a child's sandcastle, he should feel grateful if I offer to build another one in my image with no input from him.
Who asked you to proselytize? What on earth makes you think you are a "teacher"? What makes you think your "message" is desired at all?
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how does it FEEL to think you die and that's it?
Who cares? Did you stop to consider the possibility that maybe, just maybe, the people you think you're saving don't need to be saved?
You still haven't answered my question:
Suppose you were at the gym doing laps in the pool and somebody keeps pelting you with life preservers, trying to "save" you.
Is that someone being kind or is that someone being a pain in the ass?
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I've thought how it would make me feel and it makes me feel WORTHLESS.
Have you considered the possibility that the world does not revolve around you? That just because
you feel something, that doesn't mean everybody else does?
Look at the arrogance! Your claim is that if a person isn't a Christian, then he is necessarily an atheistic nihilist who is in despair. It doesn't occur to you that they have a religion already? That they already have a purpose in life, don't think they have a lousy existence, don't think they "die and that's it"?
Are you sure you're that good at reading other people's minds?
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But I know and the believers know that we are loved,
What makes you think they didn't already know that?
You seem to be of the opinion that people who believe in a god that isn't yours are somehow doomed.
It never occurs to you that these people already know they are loved by god but that the god who loves them isn't yours?
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When I was told about Jesus I didn't feel disrespected or stupid,
And how old are you?
And were you in a famine zone?
And were you told by people who were withholding medical treatment unless you submitted yourself for indoctrination?
Or were you told about it by your parents and entire community that surrounded you?
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I'm glad I was given the knowledge of the "life preserver".
Good for you.
Does it not occur to you that you should ask before tossing it to someone else? You still haven't answered my question:
Suppose you were at the gym doing laps in the pool and somebody keeps pelting you with life preservers, trying to "save" you.
Is that someone being kind or is that someone being a pain in the ass?
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Just because a person doesn't know something I don't assume they're ignorant,
Yes, you do.
You assume that people who don't know about Jesus Christ somehow need to be told, that they're not happy, that they're stuck in a "lousy existence," that they think they "die and that's it."
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I respect them for actually listening to what I have to say.
(*sigh*)
How many times do I have to say it before you respond to it?
Who asked you to talk?
Yes, how wonderful it is for people to listen to you and understand what it is you are saying, but who the hell asked you to talk in the first place?
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The truth must be heard. The truth sets you FREE.
Yes.
Have you even paused to consider the possibility that maybe, just maybe, these people already have the truth?
What makes you think you have it? Where does this arrogance come from? Who died and made you god?
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I am not trying to condemn anyone.
Do you not even read your own words?
"Lousy existence," "die and that's it," "feel worthless."
And you claim you're not condemning anyone? Here you are saying that people who don't believe in Jesus Christ necessarily feel worthless, have a lousy existence, and feel that they "die and that's it," and you claim you aren't condemning anyone?
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You would be giving what you thought was the greatest gift in the world, but there is another person involved. And if, to them, being given a piece of copper is the greatest insult of all to receive from someone and you gave someone a piece of copper, you would be outrageously rude and obnoxious in giving the most disgusting insult of all.
Telling someone about what you believe
Without their permission to do so!
Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Nobody is saying you never get to tell anybody else about what you think. We're simply pointing out that your forcing it upon people is rude at best and to actively exploit the plight of individuals in order to do so is evil.
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Again, I'm not trying to insult anyone.
But you are. By sticking your nose in where nobody asked for it, you are insulting everyone. By having the attitude that somebody needs saving simply because you think so is an insult to everyone.
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I am only a messenger.
Who isn't wanted.
Who asked you to talk? Who asked you to say anything? You have this wonderful mission with nobody asking you to come so you force your way in, destroy the structure that you find, and then demand loyalty from those who were doing just fine.
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The world does not revolve around you, messenjaH. Just because you think something is pleasant and nice and sweet does not mean that it is.
Just because you don't think it is pleasant, sweet and nice doesn't mean it isn't.
Actually, when it comes to what I think about your "gift," I am the final arbiter on the matter. You don't get to tell me how to feel. You may think it's the best thing since sliced bread, but it's a piece of crap if I say it is. I didn't ask for it, I already had a perfect system, and your coming along has screwed it all up. Your opinion doesn't enter into it as it isn't your life. It's mine.
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It isn't rude and disgusting, well maybe from your view, but from mine, offering someone eternal bliss instead of eternal pain is pleasant, sweet and nice.
They already had eternal bliss.
Who the hell are you to take it away from them?
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A mature person considers the feelings of others and does not force himself upon others who do not want his "gifts."And even more important, a good person does not exploit the suffering of others in order to force those "gifts" upon them.
I do not force my beliefs on others.
Yes, you do if you are a missionary.
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I do not exploit anyone.
Yes, you do if you are a missionary.
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I know of no christian who does these things...
Then you are either amazingly ignorant or amazingly dishonest.
Mother Teresa, for example, was a tremendous example of an evil person exploiting people's suffering for religious purposes.
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Lies, especially ones that depict others wrongly are extremely disgusting, nevermind as an insult.
Indeed.
One wonders why you promulgate them....
Did you notice that when the UN set out to eradicate smallpox, there was no religious litmus test. The vaccinations came with no sermons.
When you withhold food, clothing, and medicine from people on the contingency that they must listen to you proselytize, you are exploiting people.
I cannot explain why you don't know about these things.
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If somebody asks you to start teaching, then by all means knock yourself out if you feel it is worth it.
But who asked you to start "teaching"? I know I certainly didn't. So why do you think you have the right to my time?
The universe does not revolve around you. Just because you think something is a gift does not mean it is. Just because you think somebody needs to be "saved" does not mean said person is in any danger of anything.
If you havent realized yet, someone has told me to start teaching, more like preaching though...
What's his name?
Hint: Person A telling Person B to preach to Person C is illegitimate. It does not make Person B a teacher.
You need to secure Person C's permission first.
I don't care if Jesus told you anything. Unless you have acquired the permission of the people to whom you are preaching to do your preaching, then you are forcing yourself upon others.
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Well you started this argument didn't you?
No.
You asked a question. I answered it.
Message 17
if someone believes telling another about God is the ultimate gift then isn't that a great act of kindness?
The answer is clearly no.
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So to reverse that question, why do you have a right to my time?
I don't. But we both willingly entered this arena. This space was set aside specifically for people to make statements.
What I don't have the right to do is enter your home through the front door and make my statement to you while you're in the shower. I only get to make it here. And if you want to read it, you are free to do so and if you don't want to read it, I can't make you do so. I hold nothing over your head. Your attention to my prose will not affect you in any way, shape, or form.
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Again your opinions, the universe doesn't revolve around you either,
I know.
That's why I don't preach to people who haven't asked me for my opinion. I do not give it in places that haven't been set aside for such oratory.
And I certainly don't withhold food, clothing, or medicine until they listen.
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so how is your opinion better than mine, or how are your opinions/arguments feasible?
Mine takes your opinion into account. You don't even know of my existence unless
you decide to be aware of it. You don't learn what my opinion is until
you decide to be aware of it.
And more importantly, my opinion doesn't declare that you are in a "lousy existence," are "worthless," or that you are going to "die and that's it."
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To reverse that, just because you think someone doesn't need to be "saved" that doesn't mean they're not in danger of anything.
Of course.
But the way you find out is by asking.
Have you never taken a CPR class? The first thing you do
before you attempt to apply any lifesaving techniques, is to ask the person if they are OK. You may be overreacting to something you know nothing about.
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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!
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