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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 176 of 349 (671977)
09-01-2012 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
08-27-2012 3:41 PM


Re: Wrongness
Phat writes:
When will you people understand that absence of evidence never proves evidence of absence.
Absence of evidence proves the absence of evidence.
In a court of law, the prosecution is obliged to prove its case by producing evidence that supports their case. If they can not do that the Judge will dismiss the case..
The defence can sit on its hands and say nothing at all except:
"M'lord, I move to dismiss the case for lack of evidence".
That's what we're doing here. Produce the evidence or remove the claim.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 08-27-2012 3:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 180 of 349 (672247)
09-05-2012 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Phat
09-05-2012 2:39 AM


Re: Objective vs Subjective
Phat writes:
I dont think the verdict can be issued so easily...at this point.
The verdict is not guilty - beyond reasonable doubt

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Phat, posted 09-05-2012 2:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 187 of 349 (672385)
09-07-2012 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Hawkins
09-07-2012 3:15 PM


Hawkins writes:
"I took a bus home yesterday".
It is true. I know it. So do you guys mean that it can't be true because that it is not evident to you?
Buses exist and people take them, so I feel able to believe you. But if you'd said you rode home on dragonback, I'd ask for more evidence.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Hawkins, posted 09-07-2012 3:15 PM Hawkins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Hawkins, posted 09-07-2012 3:36 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 189 of 349 (672389)
09-07-2012 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Hawkins
09-07-2012 3:36 PM


Hawkins writes:
By the assumption that I truly rode one but later it flied away. Then the truth suddenly will not be the truth simply because it's not evident?
Neither are necessarily the truth just because you say it.
But the bus is rather more believable than the dragon, don't you think? For me to believe that you rode a dragon, I would first - and at the very least - need to have proof that dragons actually exist, because I don't think that they do and can find no objective evidence of them. In short, I'd be a fool to believe you.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Hawkins, posted 09-07-2012 3:36 PM Hawkins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 1:09 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 192 of 349 (673312)
09-18-2012 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 1:09 PM


Hawkins writes:
You completely miss the point. There's kind of truth which is completely not evident to humans. For an example, the existence of black holes is completely not evident to humans in stone age. For this kind of truth (which is not evident to humans), how will you be able to spread the message that you encountered one (by the assumption that it is true that you encountered one)?
If something is not evident to us, it's impossible to know anything at all about it - let alone call it true or believe in it.
Your stone age guy didn't believe in black holes but he probably believed that gods threw lightening bolts to the ground. He believed that because he knew that lightening bolts existed but had no idea how they worked so had to invent a method. The god invention solved a problem until it could be solved properly.
So, no, I don't need to see you getting on a bus to believe that you did it - that's because it's a believable statement. It's a believable statement because it's commonplace. I now 'believe' in blackholes because they are supported by evidence - it's become a commonplace. I would believe in your god if it was supported by evidence - as it stands, his existence is as obvious as blackholes were to your stone age man.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 1:09 PM Hawkins has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 262 of 349 (746152)
01-03-2015 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Phat
01-03-2015 11:35 AM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Phat writes:
Did you see the latest from Pope Francis?
The Catholic church has accepted evolution for generations. They just say that god sticks a soul in Homo sapiens at the correct moment.
Just more bizarre bollocks invented to maintain their absurd beliefs.
Evolution and the Catholic Church - Wikipedia

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Phat, posted 01-03-2015 11:35 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 271 of 349 (746373)
01-06-2015 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Phat
01-06-2015 2:27 AM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Phat writes:
The battle is between our carnal nature(what we like to do in that it feels good and is often selfish) and our spiritual nature(altruistic, regarding others better than ourselves)
You're all over the place again - confused by simple-minded, copycat preachings. What we like to do is usually good for us and not necessarily selfish at all. From what I'm reading about you, you need to get out and do more of what you enjoy doing that is good for you, not less. Helping others is also good for us and isn't at all spiritual - it's a basic human instinct. Both things are totally natural, understandable and thoroughly earthbound.
You're not doing yourself any good buying into this drivel.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Phat, posted 01-06-2015 2:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 279 of 349 (814095)
07-04-2017 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Phat
07-04-2017 10:53 AM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Phat writes:
Demons never affect unbelievers because demons are never ascribed as the cause. The cause is usually described as multiple personality disorder and/or schizophrenia.
Surely you're not mediaeval enough to diagnose schizophrenia as demon posession? That's just silly. And bloody dangerous.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 10:53 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 11:26 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 284 of 349 (814107)
07-04-2017 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Faith
07-04-2017 12:58 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Faith writes:
Demons do affect atheists. Then they stop being atheists. Happens a lot. But as Phat said, atheists do often succeed in rationalizing them away.
Evidence please.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Faith, posted 07-04-2017 12:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 290 of 349 (814125)
07-04-2017 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Phat
07-04-2017 2:17 PM


Re: DEMONstrations of logic, reason, and reality
Phat writes:
Does everyone automatically start out as an atheist or is that something requiring mindful decisions?
Do you really need to ask that?
You think a child would know and understand the religious stories without being taught them almost from birth? It's not a coincidence that you're a Christian but it is an accident of birth. To have been a believer of any other religion you would have had to have been born to different parents, often in a different country.
There are exceptions where people swop religions later in life but there are NO cases of people spontaneously becoming Christians or any other religion without having first learnt of it.
Religiosity is learnt behaviour.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 2:17 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Phat, posted 07-05-2017 12:34 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 292 of 349 (814226)
07-05-2017 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Phat
07-05-2017 12:34 AM


Re: DEMONstrations of logic, reason, and reality
Phat writes:
I would argue that atheism is also a learned behavior
Why don't you try arguing it?
Of course children are told stories. They also have to be taught what is truth and what is myth.
So children are taught the stories of Jehovah or Allah or Jesus and become Jews, Muslims and Christians.
Imagine a world where children are not taught the stories. How do they become believers? They can't spontaneously believe in something they know nothing about.
There wouldn't even be a word for what they are would there? They've not learned to be atheist because there's nothing there to not believe in.
Given that we have these stories in the world, do people learn to become atheist? No - they mostly have to unlearn belief. But in countries where atheism is the norm, they at least start life without the burden of belief imposed on them and as they learn more about the world they can accept a belief or not as a choice instead of an imposition.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Phat, posted 07-05-2017 12:34 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 10:49 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 294 of 349 (814251)
07-05-2017 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by New Cat's Eye
07-05-2017 10:49 AM


Re: DEMONstrations of logic, reason, and reality
NCE writes:
The same way that the first believers came about and the first religions emerged. Weird shit happens and people talk to each other about it.
It turns out that people do find personal religions on their own without having beliefs dictated to them.
Oh sure, you mean like Mormons, Scientology, Wicca etc.
Yup, people just can't help making stuff up, then worshopping it. Some people seek power and more people are gullible. Luckily it's in decline.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 10:49 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 2:01 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 296 of 349 (814266)
07-05-2017 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by New Cat's Eye
07-05-2017 2:01 PM


Re: DEMONstrations of logic, reason, and reality
NCE writes:
Yup, people just can't help making stuff up, then worshopping it.
So they can start believing something they knew nothing about?
You're contradicting yourself.
Now you're being disingenous.
The leaders make the stuff up, the followers worship it.
(And, donate their money of course.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 2:01 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 2:11 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 298 of 349 (814269)
07-05-2017 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by New Cat's Eye
07-05-2017 2:11 PM


Re: DEMONstrations of logic, reason, and reality
NCE writes:
And that is just one of the ways in which people become religious -
That's the way all the major religions have started and developed so.....
there are others too that you're failing to consider, or worse, just outright denying.
Before I can deny them, you have to tell me what they are.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 2:11 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 3:01 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 303 of 349 (814337)
07-07-2017 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by Phat
07-07-2017 4:27 AM


Re: Demons do not exist
NCE writes:
Tangle could be right. All belief could be a form of mental disorder.
Not what I'm saying. Primarily, belief is learnt, almost always from birth, but it can be unlearned when better idea are found - as we see is now happening across the developed world.
But yes, it can also be a mental aberration triggered by other personal issues sometimes trauma. Survival - grasping at straws to prevent a total breakdown.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Phat, posted 07-07-2017 4:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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