Who & what are the demons ?

I've never discounted any testimony.I just put it in the pile of similar testimony.
Your testimony about demons goes right beside the testimony of mental illness.The testimony of mental illness is currently larger.
Just as the testimony for germs and bacteria is currently larger than demons causing sickness. I'd see demon possession anywhere you can actually show it.
You seem to admit that you cannot show it, though.This doesn't mean I won't accept it if you could show it.
It just means that you are unable to show it. I apologize.
Did you know that a lot of psychopaths can be identified as being a psychopath simply by looking at their brains on imaging technology?
Did you know that most of the 'serial murderers' you speak of are also psychopaths?
Did you know that some one who is not a psychopath can become one if they suffer brain damage that ends up making their brain look similar to other psychopaths?That is very strong evidence for mental illness as a function of the brain.Did you know that DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) is understood, diagnosed and successfully treated/mitigated/controlled in almost any willing patient, given the proper care?
Did you know that Schizophrenia is understood, diagnosed and successfully treated/mitigated/controlled in almost any willing patient, given the proper care?If mental issues like DID and Schizophrenia could not be treated/mitigated/controlled in almost any willing patient, given the proper care... I would not give them such credence.However, since they can, why do you not see that as evidence of mental illness being affected by brain function? What sort of help did you try to give him?
Did you help him seek drug treatment? How many different ones did you try? (If the answer is anything less than '5 different types as suggested by a psychiatrist, each taken for at least 6 months' than it's likely such treatment didn't help much).
Did you help him seek therapy? How many different therapists did you try? (If the answer is anything less than '5 different therapists, each for at least 6 months' than it's likely such treatment didn't help much).
Did you try to help him yourself? (If you did without the proper medical attention, you likely didn't help much. Not because you're not qualified, but because - as a sister - your relationship to him would already discount how helpful you could actually be.)There were many things in the past that are now known to be... less than helpful... the improvements in the field have been rather large in the last many years. Those examples are not extremes.
Those examples are not bizarre.
Those examples are not demonic.The idea that you seem to think so indicates that perhaps you were not exposed to the wealth of information around the subject of mental illness available in certain areas today. It most likely was not your fault, either. Either those 2 things meant very different things when they were presented to you, or your 'psychology knowledge' is basically useless as the field now understands. Then how do you explain changes in how the mind works when the brain is changed? In the same person, even?
How do you explain people with very similar 'minds' when their brains are very similar using imaging technology?These things are very strong evidence that the 'mind' is specifically based (and likely "only" based) on the brain. You can say that all you'd like.The recent advances in being-able-to-help-people has increased dramatically once we understood how important the brain and physical causes are for the mind.
It is staggering and horrific how many people are helped today with this understanding vs. how many people were... discarded... before, without it.The evidence, again, seems to be against your opinion. They seem to eliminate "demon possession" just fine.
In fact, the more and more physical components we study and learn about and help people with... the less and less "demon possession" we seem to run into.You seem to think that this evidence indicates that more demon possessions are occurring and that the demons have just moved into a completely covert mode such that they can choose to no longer be detected.Sounds a bit too much like back-tracking and covering up your favourite explanation in the face of being able to help people who need it.Why not just help more people?
Why not just accept the ideas that help more people?If those ideas start helping less people... I promise... I'll trample them into the ground with you.
But so far, these ideas are just helping more and more and more people. Loved ones, like your brother, are getting help because of these ideas. As long as it works, why not let these people get help?

What kind of "help" are you talking about? Mostly they just drug people into submissiveness. My brother was killed by a strange self-inflicted "accident" right after they upped his meds.

The kind where people get better. No, they don't.Mostly they use a combination of drugs and therapy to assess and mitigate each person's individual needs.
Mental illness isn't like broken arms. You can't put the same cast on every arm. Every different person will need a cast in a different area (sometimes multiple areas) to help their individually 'broken arm' when talking about mental health. Why do you think a demon would be affected by drugs your brother took?We've already established that your knowledge (and personal experiences) with mental illness are outdated and largely obsolete.This is the time to learn how it actually works.
Everyone agrees that doing things the way you just described is a horrible way to treat people.The treatment and care of patients dealing with mental illness has grown leaps and bounds from what you are describing.And it definitely has nothing to do with demons.

Depends on what type of treatment is involved. For types of clinical mental illness, it is usually therapy with some drugs potentially being used. In other cases such as inflammation of the brain caused by something like rabies or encephalitis, it could be antiviral medications or anti-bacterials. I am sorry for your loss, but I somehow doubt any 'demon' had anything to do with that. Why would a demon even be susceptible to medications provided to someone? If they are some 'ethereal' entity, they would not be affected by anything in our 'mortal realm'.To be honest, these types of views are not only anachronistic, but quite dangerous. If anyone remembers the Virginia Tech shooter; someone who was obviously very mentally ill. Well, it turns out his mother sought help for her son -- from her church. Yes, that is correct. Instead of taking him to see medical professionals, she instead had her priest perform an exorcism. And we all saw how that turned out.

In light of our recent discussions (between me and a host of you) I think it is time to revisit this topic and expand upon it. I believe in this stuff. We could simply end it at that and check me in to the nearest mental ward, which I'm sure is the basic conclusion of many of the EvC peanut gallery. Keep in mind my basic motive for bringing this topic back up.

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Which is:I dont want to encourage the EPG (EvC Peanut Gallery) to believe in demons, though I *do* believe that they exist and that there is one God Who exists and is manifest as "The Holy Spirit" (through Jesus Christ, Who actually existed, died, and was resurrected). Jesus promised that He would send "The Comforter" who was and is the Holy Spirit. As I browse back in this 2009 topic, I see how the disagreements develop. Personally I think that "hey" are disembodied personalities. "They" are spirits(plural) in search of a vessel.(A Body) To summarize my personal belie and position I believe that there is One God. One Creator (of all seen and unseen) I believe that despite the insistence on religion and gods and beliefs as a relativistic pantheon of human ideas, there is in fact One God and One Lord Jesus Christ. And yes, EPG, this is an assertion and not yet an argument.
First, some comments from others in this old topic: Personally, I believe that God allowed one of His Angels to fully rebel and that the concept of rebellion itself was free will personified (or angelified( ) In essence, I believe that God created the possibility of evil. If He foreknew what would occur, He knew that potentialized "evil" would become actualized evil through angelic choice.
The religious dogma and thoughts within much of traditional Christian thought seem to support this. Lucifer chose to rebel, did in fact fall from "grace" and heaven, does tempt humans, though some such as ringo believe that satan is simply a character trait within us. This wouldnt mean that he couldnt also exist independent of humans just as God does. It just so happened that satan got first dibs at spiritual communion with the new human creation, though God foresaw that it would happen and already had Jesus as the human representation of His character.But lest I get long winded... Finally....some recent comments from the EPGEvC Peanut Gallery) But then, what are we to make of this stuff?[/qs] So now we have our discussion.

He provides a way out. What He wont do is allow the realm of Spirit and Supernatural to cease to exist simply because YOU dont want to deal with it. Keep standing at that altar, flowers in hand. The Universe wont marry you nor will evidence. Evidence may finally show you that your Groom is worthy, however. (and that He exists) Once the liberal thought police are able to label all belief as a mental aberration, proselytizing can be effectively banned and the antichrist can effectively step on stage and lead us all into a bright secular evidence based future.

But I don't need to deal with it. Whether I deal with it or not, the outcome is exactly the same. It already has. Paranoia is a recognized mental aberration, you know.

We know what you believe Phat, you've told us a thousand times. Once would have done. We got it then and we get it now.But what you believe is irrelevant to any rational discussion. For example...You say demons exist.
We say fine, if demons exist, show me one.
You say that before we can see one, we have to believe in them.
We shrug.A totally pointless situation. Non-overlapping magisteriums.

Hey, I agree! I dont want the antichrist to exist. I dont want there to be demons nor do I want to have any or have to deal with them.On the Far Right and in fundamentalism, we have the apocalyptic last days scenario.
On the Left, and in current rational thought, we have an evidence based scenario regarding the conditions that will lead to global warming. As in the apocalyptic scenario, we see displacement of global populations, potential wars and rumors of wars, famine disease and cold love among many being quite possible. If what you once said is right, demons are merely our own carnal nature and expressiveness coming out. The question to ask at this point is ---
How strong will we as a species have to be to survive these times and challenges? Will we all cooperate and get past the challenge together or will we fight--and die? The answer to this will also be the answer to whether the demons won or not.

I dont need to show you one. If they exist, you will someday know about it. If not, I will someday either realize it, be dead, or be heavily medicated. Not necessarily. You may someday "see" things that you never believed. But you will struggle mightily to reason them away. Any answer but the obvious.Edited by Phat, : added pooop

You do if you want me to believe you. Otherwise you're wasting your time.

No. Just delusion vs reality.A magisteria conveys too much power to this fantasy like it would need to be considered as a probable explanation for anything let alone everything. My exceptionally good friend, whom I've seen talk, once, and, of course, have read his major works both literary and scientific, Stephen Jay and I disagree on the binary nature of his magisteria.Philosophers. What can you say.

What discussion? Other than a newer(old) thread nothing's changed.I did sit through the first vid, the smart guy atheists who knew their stuff, but on the others, after about 3 min I just scanned periodic seconds here and there and then decided to go wash my brain out with a distraction provided by Tangle.This stuff is just sooo 1400s.We understand you believe. The question has always been why since you can't show us anything real. Gotta challenge your beliefs. It's my demon duty.I know. It's all emotion, hope and dreams.There really aren't any a baby-eating neurons in you, are there.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

How about if all of reality says there is nothing like that because no one has shown a rational reason to think there is? That kind of puts spirit and supernatural into the poofer.That means they just poofed out of existence, except as hopes and dreams in the wonderous imaginations of people who think they need those in order to cope. Maybe too late for a lot of people but we are migrating to less dangerous coping mechanisms for future challenges. Yes! Finally!

Stop and think. In order to "show you" a demon, I would have to either conjure one up (which I wont do as it would hurt my own spirit to even attempt doing so) make one up which would be dishonest and lying, or wait around an altar with a hidden camera which likely would look no different than the videos. And I think (though obviously cannot prove) that demons don't really want to advertise. Of course in the interest of honesty I can throw the belief in them away. I would as soon not give them any more attention than they already receive.Now...what I would want to try and do would be to pray that you somehow someday saw evidence of the Holy Spirit. All that I would need from you would be verbal affirmation and permission to see and comprehend such an event. I would of course expect you to question it as this is your nature, and I would likely expect you to doubt it and offer some alternative explanations.