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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
Stile
Member
Posts: 4042
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 316 of 349 (814523)
07-10-2017 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Faith
07-10-2017 3:14 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
Faith writes:

Any time someone tries to tell you about it you discount their testimony.

I've never discounted any testimony.

I just put it in the pile of similar testimony.
Your testimony about demons goes right beside the testimony of mental illness.

The testimony of mental illness is currently larger.
Just as the testimony for germs and bacteria is currently larger than demons causing sickness.

and why would you see demon possession in them when you've been convinced otherwise?

I'd see demon possession anywhere you can actually show it.
You seem to admit that you cannot show it, though.

This doesn't mean I won't accept it if you could show it.
It just means that you are unable to show it.

You're awfully sure of yourself for someone who has zip evidence for your assertions.

I apologize.
Did you know that a lot of psychopaths can be identified as being a psychopath simply by looking at their brains on imaging technology?
Did you know that most of the 'serial murderers' you speak of are also psychopaths?
Did you know that some one who is not a psychopath can become one if they suffer brain damage that ends up making their brain look similar to other psychopaths?

That is very strong evidence for mental illness as a function of the brain.

Did you know that DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) is understood, diagnosed and successfully treated/mitigated/controlled in almost any willing patient, given the proper care?
Did you know that Schizophrenia is understood, diagnosed and successfully treated/mitigated/controlled in almost any willing patient, given the proper care?

If mental issues like DID and Schizophrenia could not be treated/mitigated/controlled in almost any willing patient, given the proper care... I would not give them such credence.

However, since they can, why do you not see that as evidence of mental illness being affected by brain function?

I tried to be a help to him in the years before he died and became afraid of him because of his strange ideas.

What sort of help did you try to give him?
Did you help him seek drug treatment? How many different ones did you try? (If the answer is anything less than '5 different types as suggested by a psychiatrist, each taken for at least 6 months' than it's likely such treatment didn't help much).
Did you help him seek therapy? How many different therapists did you try? (If the answer is anything less than '5 different therapists, each for at least 6 months' than it's likely such treatment didn't help much).
Did you try to help him yourself? (If you did without the proper medical attention, you likely didn't help much. Not because you're not qualified, but because - as a sister - your relationship to him would already discount how helpful you could actually be.)

There were many things in the past that are now known to be... less than helpful... the improvements in the field have been rather large in the last many years.

Sometimes psychotics get "commands" to murder people and that sort of thing, sometimes to kill themselves, or their children perhaps. I may extrapolate from these extremes to less dangerous ideation, but there is plenty of bizarre ideation in many mental illnesses that I think should be considered to be demonic.

Those examples are not extremes.
Those examples are not bizarre.
Those examples are not demonic.

The idea that you seem to think so indicates that perhaps you were not exposed to the wealth of information around the subject of mental illness available in certain areas today. It most likely was not your fault, either.

I knew a lot about psychology and I absolutely despised brain theory

Either those 2 things meant very different things when they were presented to you, or your 'psychology knowledge' is basically useless as the field now understands.

Otherwise brain has nothing to do with how the mind works.

Then how do you explain changes in how the mind works when the brain is changed? In the same person, even?
How do you explain people with very similar 'minds' when their brains are very similar using imaging technology?

These things are very strong evidence that the 'mind' is specifically based (and likely "only" based) on the brain.

Funny, I'd say that focusing on physical causes wastes the important time needed to understand the supernatural nature of some phenomena.

You can say that all you'd like.

The recent advances in being-able-to-help-people has increased dramatically once we understood how important the brain and physical causes are for the mind.
It is staggering and horrific how many people are helped today with this understanding vs. how many people were... discarded... before, without it.

The evidence, again, seems to be against your opinion.

Physical components do not at all eliminate spiritual causes.

They seem to eliminate "demon possession" just fine.
In fact, the more and more physical components we study and learn about and help people with... the less and less "demon possession" we seem to run into.

You seem to think that this evidence indicates that more demon possessions are occurring and that the demons have just moved into a completely covert mode such that they can choose to no longer be detected.

Sounds a bit too much like back-tracking and covering up your favourite explanation in the face of being able to help people who need it.

Why not just help more people?
Why not just accept the ideas that help more people?

If those ideas start helping less people... I promise... I'll trample them into the ground with you.
But so far, these ideas are just helping more and more and more people. Loved ones, like your brother, are getting help because of these ideas. As long as it works, why not let these people get help?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 3:14 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 4:12 PM Stile has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 459 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 317 of 349 (814525)
07-10-2017 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Stile
07-10-2017 4:06 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
What kind of "help" are you talking about? Mostly they just drug people into submissiveness. My brother was killed by a strange self-inflicted "accident" right after they upped his meds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Stile, posted 07-10-2017 4:06 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Stile, posted 07-11-2017 9:10 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 319 by Diomedes, posted 07-11-2017 9:27 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4042
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 318 of 349 (814625)
07-11-2017 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Faith
07-10-2017 4:12 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
Faith writes:

What kind of "help" are you talking about?

The kind where people get better.

Mostly they just drug people into submissiveness.

No, they don't.

Mostly they use a combination of drugs and therapy to assess and mitigate each person's individual needs.
Mental illness isn't like broken arms. You can't put the same cast on every arm. Every different person will need a cast in a different area (sometimes multiple areas) to help their individually 'broken arm' when talking about mental health.

My brother was killed by a strange self-inflicted "accident" right after they upped his meds.

Why do you think a demon would be affected by drugs your brother took?

We've already established that your knowledge (and personal experiences) with mental illness are outdated and largely obsolete.

This is the time to learn how it actually works.
Everyone agrees that doing things the way you just described is a horrible way to treat people.

The treatment and care of patients dealing with mental illness has grown leaps and bounds from what you are describing.

And it definitely has nothing to do with demons.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 4:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 972
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 319 of 349 (814626)
07-11-2017 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Faith
07-10-2017 4:12 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
What kind of "help" are you talking about? Mostly they just drug people into submissiveness.

Depends on what type of treatment is involved. For types of clinical mental illness, it is usually therapy with some drugs potentially being used. In other cases such as inflammation of the brain caused by something like rabies or encephalitis, it could be antiviral medications or anti-bacterials.

My brother was killed by a strange self-inflicted "accident" right after they upped his meds.

I am sorry for your loss, but I somehow doubt any 'demon' had anything to do with that. Why would a demon even be susceptible to medications provided to someone? If they are some 'ethereal' entity, they would not be affected by anything in our 'mortal realm'.

To be honest, these types of views are not only anachronistic, but quite dangerous. If anyone remembers the Virginia Tech shooter; someone who was obviously very mentally ill. Well, it turns out his mother sought help for her son -- from her church. Yes, that is correct. Instead of taking him to see medical professionals, she instead had her priest perform an exorcism. And we all saw how that turned out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 4:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15641
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 320 of 349 (885087)
03-22-2021 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Bailey
01-03-2009 10:46 AM


Fantasy & Reality Revisited
In light of our recent discussions (between me and a host of you) I think it is time to revisit this topic and expand upon it. I believe in this stuff. We could simply end it at that and check me in to the nearest mental ward, which I'm sure is the basic conclusion of many of the EvC peanut gallery. Keep in mind my basic motive for bringing this topic back up.

Which is:

I dont want to encourage the EPG (EvC Peanut Gallery) to believe in demons, though I *do* believe that they exist and that there is one God Who exists and is manifest as "The Holy Spirit" (through Jesus Christ, Who actually existed, died, and was resurrected). Jesus promised that He would send "The Comforter" who was and is the Holy Spirit. As I browse back in this 2009 topic, I see how the disagreements develop.

Bailey (Topic Originator) writes:

We have heard it rumored that the demons Jesus and His apostles cast out are fallen angels.

However, there is no passage that actually says that (to our knowledge). This came to us earlier as we were contemplating Jude 6, And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day

2nd Peter 2:4 is similar.

The issue here is that Satan and his Angels are cast out of Heaven immediately after Jesus' resurrection (Rev 12:9). If the Authors of Jude and Peter claim that these angels were put into hell, then they could not have been around tormenting people during Acts, and Paul would not be too concerned about their teaching people in 1st Timothy 4:1.

If it may appear that demons are not fallen angels, then what are they, and where do they come from?

Personally I think that "hey" are disembodied personalities. "They" are spirits(plural) in search of a vessel.(A Body)
Bailey writes:

Some might find this just an odd question of no real relevance, but some would find it very relevant because many teach that the Father cannot create anything evil. The bible itself says no such thing, but many hold that it would go against the God's goodness. This is rumored to be the same reason people claim Satan had to be an angel at some point. Actually, it seems the above verses would suggest that Satan is not, in fact, a fallen angel, as (apparently) he is not confined in hell at the moment.

Perhaps demons are evil souls of Nephlim who died.

[shrugs]

Anyone else have some ideas?

To summarize my personal belie and position I believe that there is One God. One Creator (of all seen and unseen) I believe that despite the insistence on religion and gods and beliefs as a relativistic pantheon of human ideas, there is in fact One God and One Lord Jesus Christ. And yes, EPG, this is an assertion and not yet an argument.

First, some comments from others in this old topic:

Larni writes:

Demons are simply a way for xians to personify that which is not xian, to look at other religions and label any their supernatural entities as evil and terrify the gullible into the benevolent arms of the priest or vicar.


ICANT writes:

I do know there must be good and evil for there to be a choice.

If there was no evil what would the choice be?

Good, Good, or Good.

Therefore it was necessary for the devil and his messengers to exist. The only way for that to happen was for God to create them. It was also necessary for the first man to disobey God's rule for us to exist.

So those that don't like God's plan can tell Him how He should have done things when they meet Him.

Personally, I believe that God allowed one of His Angels to fully rebel and that the concept of rebellion itself was free will personified (or angelified( ) In essence, I believe that God created the possibility of evil. If He foreknew what would occur, He knew that potentialized "evil" would become actualized evil through angelic choice.
The religious dogma and thoughts within much of traditional Christian thought seem to support this. Lucifer chose to rebel, did in fact fall from "grace" and heaven, does tempt humans, though some such as ringo believe that satan is simply a character trait within us. This wouldnt mean that he couldnt also exist independent of humans just as God does. It just so happened that satan got first dibs at spiritual communion with the new human creation, though God foresaw that it would happen and already had Jesus as the human representation of His character.

But lest I get long winded...

Devils Advocate writes:

Thanks for answering my question, ICANT. I guess what I mean by philisophical is that this question pertains to the study of ethics (what behavior is considered right and wrong i.e. morality) which is a subset of philosophy.

I do know there must be good and evil for there to be a choice.

I guess it depends on how do you define good and evil?

Especially from your statements it appears that God created both good and evil. Or is good and evil arbitrarily determined by God and we can not comprehend the reasoning behind the decision of what is good and what is evil.

Also it sounds like "good" and "evil" are created by God and thus dependent on the existence of God rather than existing seperate from the existence of God? If this is true how are you sure that God is truly good and not evil? What standard are you basing this assumption on?

Here is a rather humorous video I thought that puts this into perspective:

Finally....some recent comments from the EPGEvC Peanut Gallery)

AZPaul3 writes:

You think I'm a demon out to destroy Raph's faith. You honestly believe that, don't you.

Phat, Phat, Phat. How perceptive and yet how damn dumb at the same time.

If given the opportunity, yes, I will poke and prod at his belief system. Yes, if I could convert him to BEA (baby-eating atheism) I would be ecstatic but I realistically don't hold out much hope of that.

This is for the spectator, the lurker. That's why I let him know he represents more in this talk than merely his own interests. In challenging Raph's view I will, I hope, be challenging all belief systems based on superstitious BS.

I'm not going to convert anybody, maybe. I'm not going to destroy anyone's life like your creed requires you do to people. (oooo, you're going to hell, heathen demon) I aim to challenge the thought process of superstition and expose its weaknesses and fatalities.

In doing so, I hope that in some small way the lurkers and spectators will help our society move away from the scourge of superstition.

This is an excellent example of just the BS I'm talking about. Demonize the opposition as a step to adding hate to the formula.

Your god sucks.

But then that's pretty much what you would expect a demon to say. Better burn me at the stake just to be safe.

AZPaul3 writes:

Superstition has ruled humanity for millennia and it's been an unmitigated disaster of blood, torture and death.

Rationality is just dawning in our species on a societal level. We are not only allowed, it is imperative that we elevate reality to the position of prime decision maker.

Superstition needs to die. Or at most relegated to childhood fantasies. I even chaffe at that.

But then, what are we to make of this stuff?[/qs]

So now we have our discussion.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Bailey, posted 01-03-2009 10:46 AM Bailey has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2021 1:08 PM Phat has responded
 Message 328 by AZPaul3, posted 03-22-2021 5:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15641
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 321 of 349 (885090)
03-22-2021 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by ringo
07-04-2017 12:02 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
ringo in 2017 writes:

You want your God to be loving and protecting but you still believe in malicious demons? Why doesn't your God protect us from them?

He provides a way out. What He wont do is allow the realm of Spirit and Supernatural to cease to exist simply because YOU dont want to deal with it.

ringo in 2015 writes:

Anything we call a "spiritual nature" is just an offshoot of our "carnal nature". Altruism evolved because it's good for the group and what's good for the group is good for the individual. There can be conflict between what's good for me now and what's good for the group in the long run but it's silly to call that "spiritual warfare" or to bring "demons" into it.

Keep standing at that altar, flowers in hand. The Universe wont marry you nor will evidence. Evidence may finally show you that your Groom is worthy, however. (and that He exists)

ringo,2017 writes:

How can you draw good conclusions from subjective data?

Once the liberal thought police are able to label all belief as a mental aberration, proselytizing can be effectively banned and the antichrist can effectively step on stage and lead us all into a bright secular evidence based future.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by ringo, posted 07-04-2017 12:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by ringo, posted 03-22-2021 1:02 PM Phat has responded
 Message 329 by AZPaul3, posted 03-22-2021 6:12 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19251
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 322 of 349 (885091)
03-22-2021 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by Phat
03-22-2021 12:56 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Phat writes:

He provides a way out. What He wont do is allow the realm of Spirit and Supernatural to cease to exist simply because YOU dont want to deal with it.


But I don't need to deal with it. Whether I deal with it or not, the outcome is exactly the same.

Phat writes:

The Universe wont marry you nor will evidence.


It already has.

Phat writes:

Once the liberal thought police are able to label all belief as a mental aberration, proselytizing can be effectively banned and the antichrist can effectively step on stage and lead us all into a bright secular evidence based future.


Paranoia is a recognized mental aberration, you know.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Phat, posted 03-22-2021 12:56 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Phat, posted 03-22-2021 1:11 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8207
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 323 of 349 (885092)
03-22-2021 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Phat
03-22-2021 12:19 PM


Re: Fantasy & Reality Revisited
We know what you believe Phat, you've told us a thousand times. Once would have done. We got it then and we get it now.

But what you believe is irrelevant to any rational discussion. For example...

You say demons exist.
We say fine, if demons exist, show me one.
You say that before we can see one, we have to believe in them.
We shrug.

A totally pointless situation. Non-overlapping magisteriums.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Phat, posted 03-22-2021 12:19 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by Phat, posted 03-22-2021 1:14 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 327 by AZPaul3, posted 03-22-2021 5:02 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15641
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 324 of 349 (885093)
03-22-2021 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by ringo
03-22-2021 1:02 PM


Which Scenario Would You Prefer?
ringo writes:

Paranoia is a recognized mental aberration, you know.

Hey, I agree! I dont want the antichrist to exist. I dont want there to be demons nor do I want to have any or have to deal with them.

On the Far Right and in fundamentalism, we have the apocalyptic last days scenario.
On the Left, and in current rational thought, we have an evidence based scenario regarding the conditions that will lead to global warming. As in the apocalyptic scenario, we see displacement of global populations, potential wars and rumors of wars, famine disease and cold love among many being quite possible. If what you once said is right, demons are merely our own carnal nature and expressiveness coming out. The question to ask at this point is ---
How strong will we as a species have to be to survive these times and challenges? Will we all cooperate and get past the challenge together or will we fight--and die? The answer to this will also be the answer to whether the demons won or not.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by ringo, posted 03-22-2021 1:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by ringo, posted 03-23-2021 12:13 PM Phat has responded
 Message 335 by dwise1, posted 03-27-2021 3:02 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15641
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 325 of 349 (885095)
03-22-2021 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Tangle
03-22-2021 1:08 PM


Re: Fantasy & Reality Revisited
I dont need to show you one. If they exist, you will someday know about it. If not, I will someday either realize it, be dead, or be heavily medicated.

tangle writes:

You say that before we can see one, we have to believe in them.

Not necessarily. You may someday "see" things that you never believed. But you will struggle mightily to reason them away. Any answer but the obvious.

Edited by Phat, : added pooop


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2021 1:08 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2021 1:18 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8207
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 326 of 349 (885096)
03-22-2021 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by Phat
03-22-2021 1:14 PM


Re: Fantasy & Reality Revisited
Phat writes:

I dont need to show you one.


You do if you want me to believe you. Otherwise you're wasting your time.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Phat, posted 03-22-2021 1:14 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Phat, posted 03-23-2021 2:10 AM Tangle has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6020
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 327 of 349 (885100)
03-22-2021 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Tangle
03-22-2021 1:08 PM


Re: Fantasy & Reality Revisited
A totally pointless situation. Non-overlapping magisteriums

No. Just delusion vs reality.

A magisteria conveys too much power to this fantasy like it would need to be considered as a probable explanation for anything let alone everything. My exceptionally good friend, whom I've seen talk, once, and, of course, have read his major works both literary and scientific, Stephen Jay and I disagree on the binary nature of his magisteria.

Philosophers. What can you say.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2021 1:08 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6020
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 328 of 349 (885101)
03-22-2021 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Phat
03-22-2021 12:19 PM


Re: Fantasy & Reality Revisited
So now we have our discussion.

What discussion? Other than a newer(old) thread nothing's changed.

I did sit through the first vid, the smart guy atheists who knew their stuff, but on the others, after about 3 min I just scanned periodic seconds here and there and then decided to go wash my brain out with a distraction provided by Tangle.

This stuff is just sooo 1400s.

We understand you believe. The question has always been why since you can't show us anything real. Gotta challenge your beliefs. It's my demon duty.

I know. It's all emotion, hope and dreams.

There really aren't any a baby-eating neurons in you, are there.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Phat, posted 03-22-2021 12:19 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6020
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 329 of 349 (885102)
03-22-2021 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by Phat
03-22-2021 12:56 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
What He wont do is allow the realm of Spirit and Supernatural to cease to exist simply because YOU dont want to deal with it.

How about if all of reality says there is nothing like that because no one has shown a rational reason to think there is? That kind of puts spirit and supernatural into the poofer.

That means they just poofed out of existence, except as hopes and dreams in the wonderous imaginations of people who think they need those in order to cope. Maybe too late for a lot of people but we are migrating to less dangerous coping mechanisms for future challenges.

Once the liberal thought police are able to label all belief as a mental aberration, proselytizing can be effectively banned and the antichrist can effectively step on stage and lead us all into a bright secular evidence based future.

Yes! Finally!


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Phat, posted 03-22-2021 12:56 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15641
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 330 of 349 (885104)
03-23-2021 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by Tangle
03-22-2021 1:18 PM


Re: Fantasy & Reality Revisited
Phat writes:

I dont need to show you one.


Tangle writes:

You do if you want me to believe you. Otherwise you're wasting your time.

Stop and think. In order to "show you" a demon, I would have to either conjure one up (which I wont do as it would hurt my own spirit to even attempt doing so) make one up which would be dishonest and lying, or wait around an altar with a hidden camera which likely would look no different than the videos. And I think (though obviously cannot prove) that demons don't really want to advertise. Of course in the interest of honesty I can throw the belief in them away. I would as soon not give them any more attention than they already receive.

Now...what I would want to try and do would be to pray that you somehow someday saw evidence of the Holy Spirit. All that I would need from you would be verbal affirmation and permission to see and comprehend such an event. I would of course expect you to question it as this is your nature, and I would likely expect you to doubt it and offer some alternative explanations.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2021 1:18 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Tangle, posted 03-23-2021 3:55 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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