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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8169
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 331 of 349 (885105)
03-23-2021 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by Phat
03-23-2021 2:10 AM


Re: Fantasy & Reality Revisited
Phat writes:

Stop and think.

That's rich...

In order to "show you" a demon, I would have to either conjure one up (which I wont do as it would hurt my own spirit to even attempt doing so) make one up which would be dishonest and lying, or wait around an altar with a hidden camera which likely would look no different than the videos.

Almost as though they don't exist eh?

And I think (though obviously cannot prove) that demons don't really want to advertise.

So all those videos of fake pastors casting out fake demons where, what, fake?

Now...what I would want to try and do would be to pray that you somehow someday saw evidence of the Holy Spirit. All that I would need from you would be verbal affirmation and permission to see and comprehend such an event. I would of course expect you to question it as this is your nature, and I would likely expect you to doubt it and offer some alternative explanations.

Been there, done that, believed it then EXACTLY like you, now know it to be total and utter bollox. You've been conned Phat.

You keep forgetting - or actually never actually hear it - that several of us here started life as believers so we know the nonsense.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Phat, posted 03-23-2021 2:10 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19125
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 332 of 349 (885106)
03-23-2021 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Phat
03-22-2021 1:11 PM


Re: Which Scenario Would You Prefer?
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Paranoia is a recognized mental aberration, you know.


Hey, I agree! I dont want the antichrist to exist. I dont want there to be demons nor do I want to have any or have to deal with them.

Paranoia is not about not wanting something to exist. It's about thinking something is out to get you when there's no evidence that it is.

Phat writes:

As in the apocalyptic scenario, we see displacement of global populations, potential wars and rumors of wars, famine disease and cold love among many being quite possible.


Those things have happened throughout history. They have nothing to do with any apolcalypse and certainly nothing to do with demons.

Phat writes:

How strong will we as a species have to be to survive these times and challenges?


We might not survive.

Phat writes:

Will we all cooperate and get past the challenge together or will we fight--and die? The answer to this will also be the answer to whether the demons won or not.


No it won't. "The demons" don't exist.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Phat, posted 03-22-2021 1:11 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by Phat, posted 03-25-2021 1:47 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15444
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 333 of 349 (885154)
03-25-2021 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by ringo
03-23-2021 12:13 PM


Re: Which Scenario Would You Prefer?
ringo writes:

Paranoia is not about not wanting something to exist. It's about thinking something is out to get you when there's no evidence that it is.

The only "evidence" we have about demons is found in scripture.

Eph 6:10-20 writes:

NIV-
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

19 Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

Of course your arguments attempt to neuter scripture as being an impotent story and that it is in no way equal to the words defining the evidence of the scientific methodology of definition. I want this in the record.

Phat writes:

As in the apocalyptic scenario, we see displacement of global populations, potential wars and rumors of wars, famine disease and cold love among many being quite possible.


ringo writes:

Those things have happened throughout history. They have nothing to do with any apocalypse and certainly nothing to do with demons.(...)
We might not survive.

Phat writes:

Will we all cooperate and get past the challenge together or will we fight--and die? The answer to this will also be the answer to whether the demons won or not.


ringo writes:

No it won't. "The demons" don't exist.

And so might not us.
Rev 17:8 writes:

8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

It does not take Rocket Science to interpret the scripture. God was, Is, and always will be. The beast (demons,bad vibes, whatever) once was (as Lucifer,maybe?) now is not (demons dont exist..etc) and yet will come. We will either exist in eternity with Jesus and the Holy Spirit or we wont exist at all, as you suggest.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by ringo, posted 03-23-2021 12:13 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by anglagard, posted 03-25-2021 6:21 PM Phat has responded
 Message 346 by ringo, posted 04-01-2021 11:17 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2309
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 334 of 349 (885161)
03-25-2021 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Phat
03-25-2021 1:47 PM


Re: Which Scenario Would You Prefer?
Phat writes:

The only "evidence" we have about demons is found in scripture.

As a self-proclaimed scriptural teacher, I was wondering if you ever got around to reading the Gospel According to Matthew? To me that is the best out of 66 (Protestant version) and you are missing out on the best part. After all, it's your asserted religion, why not read and attempt to understand the very core text to this belief system?

I am increasing concerned that even were you to actually read the Bible, you would not understand it, as evidenced by the statement "against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." being interpreted as "demons" rather than "rulers and authorities."

People who have read the Bible know whether or not someone has read and understood the message. Your posts indicate you have not read, or if did, understand the plain meaning of the text. Ringo did that, jar did that, I did that, why can't you?

It does not take Rocket Science to interpret the scripture.

No, it requires humility before God, let me know when you accomplish that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Phat, posted 03-25-2021 1:47 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by Phat, posted 03-27-2021 2:36 PM anglagard has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4639
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 335 of 349 (885190)
03-27-2021 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by Phat
03-22-2021 1:11 PM


Re: Which Scenario Would You Prefer?
Hey, I agree! I dont want the antichrist to exist.

Nobody does, except for someone who wants to make it a self-fulfilled prophesy. Like Trump, or at least his enablers -- for fear of invoking Godwin, much of the evil done by Trump was actually done by those around him exploiting his power to be able to do their own evil (eg, Gollum's twin brother Stephen Miller), much as it's been argued that most Nazi evil was done by those around him doing what they thought he would want as well as to carve out their own personal empires within the regime.

A few weeks ago on Facebook I had an epiphany. Ed Babinski posted a fundamentalist Christian declaring that the Bible demands that Trump remain President. Yeah, the usual fundie nonsense, but then I realized what he actually meant. The AntiChrist is supposed to gain and keep political power. As the AntiChrist, Trump is not supposed to have lost re-election, since by doing so that proves the Bible wrong! No fundie can ever allow that to happen!

Of course, we could quibble whether Trump is the AntiChrist or the Beast. Putin certain has better chops for the AC job; Trump is just too much of an f*cking moron.

I dont want there to be demons nor do I want to have any or have to deal with them.

So why create them?

On the Far Right and in fundamentalism, we have the apocalyptic last days scenario.

My fundamentalist Christian training was from the Jesus Freaks circa 1970. Calvary Church of Costa Mesa (always located in neighboring Santa Ana, so they've been deniers of reality from the very start). Besides biblical literalism (a naïve form of which had turned me into an atheist half a decade earlier and now here's an entire church for whom it was an article of faith) they were obsessed with The End Times and with demons. Even the simplest natural phenomena (eg, sleep paralysis) they would blame on demons.

After I had constantly seen so much stupid nonsense about demons, why should I be expected to have any patience with your own stupid nonsense about demons? Like Dean Obeidallah commented the other day, after four years of incessant lying by Trump and his psychophants (a very apt Nance-ism) Obeidallah just no longer has any patience at all with any Republican lying. None whatsoever! And having tried to deal with incessant creationist lying since the late 1980's, I most certainly have absolutely no patience with that lying anymore.

As for End Times and what it used to mean:
Here's a corollary that was presented in a late-80's Christianity Today article on the Christian Reconstructionist movement (intent on replacing the US Constitution with an Old Testament theocracy), which has since been replaced with Dominion Theology and now with Christian nationalism. The article addressed the traditional fundamentalist view of involvement in politics: the Bible says the entire world is going to Hell in whichever kind of container you may choose * , so trying to save the world would be like polishing the brass on a sinking ship and hence "true Christians" would refuse to waste their time and energy getting involved in politics.

What changed that the fundie "Radical Religious Right" adopted a foreign theology? They were premillennialists, meaning that the Second Coming would happen before the 1000 years of Christ's rule on Earth. The Christian Reconstructionists were postmillennialists, meaning that their mission was to create the 1000 years of Christ's rule on Earth, at the end of which would be the Second Coming. So while retaining their premillennialist theology, they adopted the postmillennialist political strategy of seizing political power.




FOOTNOTE *:
I have always been a bit weak on popular culture, especially with popular music from late-early-70's rock to the present (I bailed out in favor of "classical" (which actually covers a lot more than just the classical era (circa Haydn to early Beethoven)) when the 50's Revival reared its ugly head signaling in my mind that rock was dying (I didn't like 50's rock the first time around and certainly not warmed over)). I keep remembering on German movie with Ruth Leuwerik, a tear-jerker (they were rated by how many boxes of tissues you needed to watch it). She played a teacher with very troubled students because they were into jazz (give you any appreciation for how simple things had been in the past?). One of her students dies. His friends want to play jazz at his funeral. The mortician absolutely refuses (at first -- sorry, I forget the rest of the movie, but they are finally able to play at his funeral). I do remember the mortician's statement, "Bei mir gibt's nach Brahms keine Musik mehr!" ("In my opinion, there has been no more music after Brahms!") Oh for the good old days when jazz music was the height of youth rebellion!

Some source(s) had come up with a long list of different ways to go to Hell, depending on your own particular mode of self-destruction. "In a bottle" for alcohol, "in a baggy" for drugs, "in a plastic bucket". I heard someone go through that list in the early 70's but cannot even begin to try to recreate it.



On the Left, and in current rational thought, we have an evidence based scenario regarding the conditions that will lead to global warming. As in the apocalyptic scenario, we see displacement of global populations, potential wars and rumors of wars, famine disease and cold love among many being quite possible.

We have always seen those "signs" for millennia! I even have a book about it, "The History of the End of the World". Those "signs of the end" put "the boy who called 'Wolf!'" to shame. Basically, your example is a meaningless prophesy looking for a fulfillment (pick one, any one).

IOW, why do we just shrug off your "signs of the End Times"? Because you've been yammering them literally for millennia! Early Christians would not even plant trees because the Christ would return before they could ever be able to bear any fruit (I tend to separate The Christ from the person of Jesus, the former have been mainly an invention of Saul of Tarsus). How did that work for them?

Similarly, that explains how the highly virulent Jesus Freak Movement (there was a time when you couldn't walk down the street without being accosted by an offensive proselytizer, which is one reason why fundies are still social pariahs) having settled down to being almost mainstream. To the Jesus Freaks circa 1970, the End was Nigh. But then when the End didn't happen, they fell in love and got married and had families and got mortgages and had careers, etc. IOW, they got a life. Oh, they undoubtedly still believed in the End, but they also moved on.

So bottom line of what you just said is, "So what?" You say that the sky is blue? Yeah, it is. So what?

If what [ringo] once said is right, demons are merely our own carnal nature and expressiveness coming out.

That sounds like a very reasonable and accurate description. And very descriptive of how you have invoked those "demons" in your own posts. Metaphors.

But metaphors are not real, nor are they real threats (except in Il Postino (1994) in which the girl's chaperone protested to the priest about the postman's use of poetry with the explicit complaint of "Metafore!"

Really? You take metaphors as being real? Really?

Watch Helena Botham Carter's second film, Lady Jane (1986) about Lady Jane Grey, "Queen for Nine Days", who succeeded Henry VIII's son, Edward VI, before Henry's first Spanish daughter, Mary Bloody Mary, took power and tried to return England to Catholicism with the Spanish Inquisition ("Nobody ever expects the Spanish Inquisition!"). In her self-defense in the movie, Lady Jane tried to argue against Catholic literalist interpretation of metaphor: "Jesus said, 'I am the Door'. Was he a literal door?" She was still executed. To quote from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, "... because nobody likes a smart ass."

BTW, metaphors are not real. Nor are Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. Powerful ideas, but still not literally real.

The question to ask at this point is ---
How strong will we as a species have to be to survive these times and challenges? Will we all cooperate and get past the challenge together or will we fight--and die?

According to Biblical prophesy, we will all die. So why do you even dare to pose that sacrilegious question? To propose that we could possibly overturn your god's will should be unthinkable to you, a supposed true Believer. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Oscar? Are you suggesting that we polish the brass on a sinking ship?

 
But then this brings us back to that perennial problem of self-fulfilled prophesies, doesn't it?

Do we submit to the defeatedist prophesies that we will ultimately fail and all die? So we all just lie down and die? And in doing so we fulfill those prophesies of Doom.

Or do we instead strive to succeed against all opposition? Even if the chances of success are very small, they do exist nonetheless. And even if we succeed only slightly, that would still be better than if we had done nothing to try to save ourselves.

The alternative would be to just lie down and die. Which is your position.

The answer to this will also be the answer to whether the demons won or not.

Demons have nothing to do with any of it.

But again to remind you, your position is for us to let the demons win.

Edited by dwise1, : Completing my thoughts (since I tend to think in German, that can take a rather long time)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Phat, posted 03-22-2021 1:11 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Phat, posted 03-27-2021 11:29 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15444
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 336 of 349 (885193)
03-27-2021 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by anglagard
03-25-2021 6:21 PM


Re: Which Scenario Would You Prefer?
anglagard writes:

Your posts indicate you have not read, or if did, understand the plain meaning of the text. Ringo did that, jar did that, I did that, why can't you?

I have seen and experienced enough to believe that the supernatural is real. You guys are simply loking at it as humanitarian and opposition to corrupt earthly leaders. No wonder you like to compare Matthew to Bernie Sanders.
Granted you have found no evidence to support my belief, but I assure you its no mere fantasy. As far as I honestly deduce, demons and angels are real.

To me, spirituality is on a higher plain than mere humanitarianism and empathy.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by anglagard, posted 03-25-2021 6:21 PM anglagard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by AZPaul3, posted 03-27-2021 4:58 PM Phat has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 337 of 349 (885197)
03-27-2021 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by Phat
03-27-2021 2:36 PM


Re: Which Scenario Would You Prefer?
As far as I honestly deduce, demons and angels are real.

I believe you sincerely believe this. Which is too bad because it turns another good brain bad.

To me, spirituality is on a higher plain than mere humanitarianism and empathy.

Yes, we know. You think your god’s evil takes precedence over the human suffering it causes.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Phat, posted 03-27-2021 2:36 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by Phat, posted 03-28-2021 12:32 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15444
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 338 of 349 (885201)
03-27-2021 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by dwise1
03-27-2021 3:02 AM


What I Have Observed
Phat writes:

I dont want there to be demons nor do I want to have any or have to deal with them.


dwise1 writes:

So why create them?

Looking back, I never consciously saw myself or others creating them so much as observing them. I will give you the idea that people may think that they have them and behave accordingly especially on stage at an altar in front of a crowd of believing peers. I would see people throw up, cuss,exhibit hateful emotions against the exorcist(Pastor or layman attempting to do the deliverance) and behave much like the people in the videos I presented in Message 320

Even back then, I was skeptical of some of the behavior, though I was somewhat delighted that evil actually had a manifestation that we could say was apart from the seekers, as they often had an emotional catharsis leading to lasting change in their lives. Well, I should say that some did. Others were at the altar week after week with another "demon" to get rid of and a propensity for public drama.

My point is that I can see the arguments regarding "creating" the demons or the drama or the multiple personality exhibitions. What gives me pause in my assessment is due to the very real event that happened with me. I have told the story here before, and of all that I remember, the thing that most stood out is the high pitched chipmunk sounding voices that I clearly heard which set my experience apart from simply throwing up and putting on a show. That one small bit of unexplained drama was enough to convince me that there was something to the idea that demons (or some unexplained manifestation) most definitely DID exist. I Observed it. I heard it. I did NOT create it.

I have a close friend who is intuitively philosophically minded and what some would say is intuitive. He is most definitely not of the charismatic/fundamentalist mold. His basic philosophy is to not worry about the "demons" but rather to focus on allowing the Holy Spirit to live strongly in you and that the demons--if any were ever around--would simply leave.

And he wouldn't even call "it" the Holy Spirit. He would call it the creative force. The power of creativity, love, honesty and expressiveness.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by dwise1, posted 03-27-2021 3:02 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by anglagard, posted 03-28-2021 3:09 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15444
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 339 of 349 (885218)
03-28-2021 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by AZPaul3
03-27-2021 4:58 PM


Re: Which Scenario Would You Prefer?
I believe you sincerely believe this. Which is too bad because it turns another good brain bad.
What do you expect me to do? Deny the reality of my experience pending objective evidence? I could be in for a long wait.

And I dont base my life experience on objective measured reality. I base it on what I hear, see, touch, feel, and also on what others experience upon seeing the same thing. I refuse to be a skeptic just for the sake of science.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by AZPaul3, posted 03-27-2021 4:58 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by AZPaul3, posted 03-28-2021 12:57 PM Phat has responded
 Message 347 by ringo, posted 04-01-2021 11:26 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 340 of 349 (885219)
03-28-2021 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by Phat
03-28-2021 12:32 PM


Re: Which Scenario Would You Prefer?
hat do you expect me to do? Deny the reality of my experience pending objective evidence? I could be in for a long wait.

Excellent question. What do I expect you to do?

I expect you to give up this childish fantasy and face the reality you are in.

I base it on what I hear, see, touch, feel, and also on what others experience upon seeing the same thing.

No you don't. That would be objective reality but you have already shown you don't believe in objective reality. You base your experiences on what you think you perceive in the midst of your fantasies. It is emotion and peer pressure not reality.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Phat, posted 03-28-2021 12:32 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 03-28-2021 3:22 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2309
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 341 of 349 (885222)
03-28-2021 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Phat
03-27-2021 11:29 PM


Re: What I Have Observed
Have you considered any possibility the sounds you heard did not come from "demons" ?

There was a Canadian show on Amazon we watched around last summer about ghost stories, which I find close to demon stories. It was called Paranormal House Inspectors. Each show had the same plot.

First they brought in the usual ghosthunters with whatever stupid gizmos they used to certify there were "unusual readings." Then they brought in a researcher who looked up the property history to see if there were any murders, Indian burial grounds, or other anomalies.

Then came the building inspector. Those noises from the attic, they are from that family of raccoons who live there. The reason the room is cold is because you put a piece of solid furniture in front of the register. The door opens by itself because of settling and the house is not completely level. This door has a lock, here it is. The house vibrates because you are 50 feet from the train tracks, it is caused by trains. And so on.

Did it ever occur to you that you don't hear an odd noise and immediately say demons? That you don't see something in the sky and immediately conclude it must be the "gray aliens" in their magical metal spaceship? You don't glimpse a bear in the woods and immediately conclude you saw Bigfoot?

It appears to me that you only jump immediately to demons as some kind of go-to explanation to the exclusion of all others because you can't seem to fathom that there may be another cause.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Phat, posted 03-27-2021 11:29 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by Phat, posted 03-28-2021 3:36 PM anglagard has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15444
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 342 of 349 (885223)
03-28-2021 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by AZPaul3
03-28-2021 12:57 PM


Re: Which Scenario Would You Prefer?
AZAntiTheist3 writes:

I expect you to give up this childish fantasy and face the reality you are in.

It almost seems like you have some emotion invested in this thing...this God Who does not exist. I can sense that you want people...believers,skeptics and lurkers alike...to agree with you that God is a childish fantasy. Specifically the Christian God. Specifically Jesus Christ. |

An old member here at EvC, a fellow from Ireland named Iano, accused jar of being a fifth columnist. In my mind, jar would be happy if people who claimed to be Christian did nothing more with their lives than feed and clothe people, support political causes helpful to everyone rather than just a privileged few, accepted all of the different beliefs in the world as diversity and that no belief...especially their own..was the correct one.

Anglagard is the same way.
He looks at Christianity as an altruistic teaching where people help people and no God, supernatural war, or judgement is ever needed so long as we all are nice to each other.

He thinks I will never understand the Bible (or God) as long as I believe the way I do.
What you call childish fantasies.
And you insist that I have been conned. Never do you ever consider that I have interpreted what I have experienced correctly. It could never happen! And being a self proclaimed zealous anti theist, you wont rest until the entire belief that I and others have is vanquished from human awareness and practice. Am I about right?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by AZPaul3, posted 03-28-2021 12:57 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by AZPaul3, posted 03-28-2021 6:40 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15444
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 343 of 349 (885224)
03-28-2021 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by anglagard
03-28-2021 3:09 PM


Re: What I Have Observed
Did it ever occur to you that you don't hear an odd noise and immediately say demons?
I would have never said demons unless i was convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.
That you don't see something in the sky and immediately conclude it must be the "gray aliens" in their magical metal spaceship? You don't glimpse a bear in the woods and immediately conclude you saw Bigfoot
Yes, I realize this. I could care less about Bigfoot. If visitors from other worlds exist, they are no mopre likely than visitors from other dimensions. In fact, I would even say that most alien encounters *have* been demons from other dimensions. Angels would never sneak around and examine humans. I will admit that I am biased towards the Christian explanations. I certainly dont try and disprove them...though I am more cautious than ever about reporting a firsthand sighting. If You hear anything new from me regarding personal experience, I will be very careful what I say before reporting it. I dont simply hear a booming voice from the sky nor do I see invisible gremlins running around.

It appears to me that you only jump immediately to demons as some kind of go-to explanation to the exclusion of all others because you can't seem to fathom that there may be another cause.

I will again admit to some bias in this area. If reality told me tomorrow that God did NOT exist, I would go into an existential crises. I will say, however, I I don't trust people who claim that the supernatural is impossible. They have no way of knowing.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by anglagard, posted 03-28-2021 3:09 PM anglagard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by anglagard, posted 03-31-2021 9:53 PM Phat has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 344 of 349 (885227)
03-28-2021 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Phat
03-28-2021 3:22 PM


Re: Which Scenario Would You Prefer?
Never do you ever consider that I have interpreted what I have experienced correctly.

Well, Phat, of course not.

The series of events you relate I'm sure were unusual and probably unique for you but the interpretation you give to these things is strictly out of lala land.

I can say this because you insist on supernatural gods and demons as the cause and there aren't any supernatural gods or demons. There has to be, as a matter of actual physical reality, some other explanation.

But the bigger problem is with your brain. You WANT to see gods and demons. You want there to have been gods and demons in your remembrances. You're so desperate for them reality can't reach you. You won't let it. You're afraid the gods and demons might go away and your universe would collapse.

Well, Phat, reality says they aren't there. Crumble, crumble, boom, boom.

It's ok, You're not going to fall.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 03-28-2021 3:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2309
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 345 of 349 (885277)
03-31-2021 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by Phat
03-28-2021 3:36 PM


Re: What I Have Observed
Phat writes:

I would have never said demons unless i was convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

Your definition of "convinced beyond a reasonable doubt" is nowhere near mine. When you witness these "demons" was anyone else present to verify the events and have a similar interpretation? For that matter, was a pet dog or cat there to perhaps have a different interpretation as indicated by their reaction? If visual, did you film it on your smartphone? If auditory did you put on noise-cancelling headphones to see if the source was external or internal? Why do you prioritize fear over curiosity? Are you an *acting* primate?

Note: If you put on those noise-cancelling headphones and still hear "demons," time to get your head examined. Auditory hallucinations are most likely the result of either hebephrenic schizophrenia or early-onset dementia although there may be other causes. After the mid-20s, schizophrenia is unlikely. When you hear voices, it's time for a full med check since something is obviously wrong.

In fact, I would even say that most alien encounters *have* been demons from other dimensions.

This is what I mean. Instead of going "WTF is that?" or around here "what is White Sands/Kirtland/Sandia/LANL/NMT up to now," you immediately jump to "interdimensional demons" to the exclusion of all other possibilities.

AZ Paul is right, you see demons because you want to, not because they are real. I would add that you even prefer to believe in demons more than Christ because while it appears you adamantly refuse to read the gospels, you are more than willing to listen to idiots babble on about demons.

I will say, however, I I don't trust people who claim that the supernatural is impossible.

The supernatural is by definition, unnatural and therefore not a part of the consensus version of reality. it is also an inherent violation of Occam's Razor.

They have no way of knowing.

How would you know? You are the one who refuses to read, you are the one who won't attend college. You want some MTW braggadocio? I have at least 391 units and have read well over 10,000 books (and should you lie about the contents of any one, you will hear from me if no one else beats me to it). As Good Will Hunting said "how do you like those apples."

Normally, this bragging would be considered an argument from authority, but I vastly prefer an argument from authority to an argument from ignorance. Speaking of ignorance, you know this is a curable condition right? If you want to speak on behalf of Christianity shouldn't you have *actually* read the Bible? What other source would one use? A tertiary source? How would you know personally if they were telling the truth or bearing false witness regarding their purported source?

Phat, for some reason I believe you can be saved even if you don't know what that means. You have some humility, some (but too little) respect for several core religious figures. My advice is to talk less (and unknowingly embarrass yourself) and learn more. Yeah, I'm hard on you, but it is for a reason.

Phat, my research into religion is not about joining the club without question, it is rather that religion is as an important factor in the study of history as much as the military, economic, and other nonreligious cultural aspects such as apparel, diet, etc.

That being said, in my subjective and culturally-biased opinion, the Gospel according to Matthew is sometimes very beautiful in the message, the lead character has no match (outside of Spinoza or the unusually gospel-informed Krishna, guess plagiarizing used to be more acceptable in the past), the plot would be considered brilliant even as a work of fiction and of course it is the core book for those who claim to be adherents of Christianity.

I can not overemphasize how much you are missing out. Perhaps, if nothing else, you would at least learn Jesus did not preach demonology. Perhaps you are more into auditory input, I will leave you with a video:

Edited by anglagard, : A few minor spelling erors.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Phat, posted 03-28-2021 3:36 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Phat, posted 04-17-2021 10:37 AM anglagard has not yet responded

  
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