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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
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Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 1406 (372849)
12-29-2006 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Asgara
12-29-2006 8:25 PM


God may know that actions that are chosen
Asgara writes:

Does this God know what these actions will be before you are born?

Yes. I believe that the future is set much as the past is set. What has happened in the past has happened and nothing can change that fact.
  • There is a difference between God knowing the future and God decreeing every future event by fiat such that it will then take place. ---Just because God knows what I will ultimately decide does not take away my ability to decide...it only means that God knew my decision before I did.

  • We are going to make particular decisions in the future that are acts of our own personal will, and that is what secures the future such that God can know particular things or facts about the future. Therefore we can call God omniscient because He knows all things, but we can't necessarily say that He makes up our minds for us....only that we can't do anything that He did not foreknow.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 33 by Asgara, posted 12-29-2006 8:25 PM Asgara has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15361
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 36 of 1406 (372859)
    12-29-2006 9:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 35 by Kader
    12-29-2006 9:12 PM


    Re: God may know that actions that are chosen
    Say that I died tomorrow. God foreknew that I would die and how I would die. This only means what it means---that God foreknew that on that day I would get shot since was in spot X. Does this mean that the guy who shot me could not have chosen a different path in the past? All that we can conclude is that the guy obviously didn't choose another path...not that he couldn't have. Just because something happens does not mean that it must happen...(unless you see it from Gods forward looking view)it simply means that it did happen.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 35 by Kader, posted 12-29-2006 9:12 PM Kader has responded

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15361
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 40 of 1406 (372876)
    12-29-2006 10:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 39 by Kader
    12-29-2006 9:59 PM


    Re: God may know that actions that are chosen
    Websters writes:

    1plann 1 : a drawing or diagram showing the parts or details of something 2 : a method for accomplishing an objective; also : goal, aim

    So in the sense of God desiring that I live life to the best of my ability through His will, yes He wants the best for me.

    He cannot have a plan as long as I have any control, so in this sense His plan is that I willfully and joyfully accept His guidance. He desires that I have relationship with Him so that I freely choose what turns out to always be the better option.

    His foreknowing my eventual destiny does not mean that He controls me.


    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15361
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
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    Message 41 of 1406 (372877)
    12-29-2006 10:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 38 by Asgara
    12-29-2006 9:48 PM


    Puppets or Prodegies?
    Asgara writes:

    So, if this God created you knowing the final outcome...how can you truly have free will?

    Phat writes:

    Just because He knows what my decisions will be does not mean that He forced my decisions...only that I cannot force His knowledge.

    You are simply acting out the script that was written for you.

    I am co writing the script through my actions. Just because He knows what I want to do before I do does not mean that He activates my mind and moves my lips.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 38 by Asgara, posted 12-29-2006 9:48 PM Asgara has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 42 by Asgara, posted 12-29-2006 10:46 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15361
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 50 of 1406 (372926)
    12-30-2006 3:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 42 by Asgara
    12-29-2006 10:46 PM


    Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
    Asgara writes:

    Does he or does he not already have your life scripted out before he creates you? If he doesn't then he doesn't know what will happen.

    The script, even if not yet written, is final. Ultimately everything will be as it is. From our perspective on the journey, we are making decisions which impact the final script (and they do) Perhaps what frustrates many is the idea that we can never really freely choose anything that altars what must be...so in that sense we don't have freedom to circumvent God.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 42 by Asgara, posted 12-29-2006 10:46 PM Asgara has not yet responded

      
    Phat
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    Posts: 15361
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
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    Message 51 of 1406 (372927)
    12-30-2006 3:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 48 by Rob
    12-30-2006 12:38 AM


    Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
    scottness writes:

    If you want the solution to this problem, read message 47.

    Scottness, might I remind you that what we are writing are our opinions and our beliefs...not necessarily solutions which implies a bit of arrogance, don't you think?

    Perhaps a good rule of thumb is to say that nobody on this board has any solutions for anyone else. We are here to debate in good form and attempt to persuade others by voicing our beliefs and opinions.


    Phat® says: We Become The Decisions That We Make.
    * * * * * * * * * *
    "I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by men who were inspired. I study the Bible daily."

    "Atheism is so senseless. When I look at the solar system. I see the earth at the right distance from the sun to receive the proper amounts of heat and light. This did not happen by chance."- --Sir Isaac Newton


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 48 by Rob, posted 12-30-2006 12:38 AM Rob has responded

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15361
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
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    Message 59 of 1406 (762741)
    07-15-2015 5:27 AM


    Free Will Remix
    I said:
    quote:
    Perhaps what frustrates many is the idea that we can never really freely choose anything that altars what must be...so in that sense we don't have freedom to circumvent God.
    Comments?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

    Replies to this message:
     Message 60 by Tangle, posted 07-15-2015 6:01 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 61 by ringo, posted 07-15-2015 3:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15361
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 62 of 1406 (762760)
    07-15-2015 3:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 46 by Asgara
    12-30-2006 12:33 AM


    Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
    Asgara writes:

    If you are created with the eventual outcome known by your creator then how can you have free will. You will do what you are scripted to do, what is already known you will do.

    I will concede in essence that we have free will to do good(as defined by the Creator) or evil(as defined by the Creator).

    We don't have another option to simply ignore reality(as defined by the Creator) and simply do what thou wilt.

    Its this fact that frustrates many free thinkers. One cannot simply eternally ignore reality, even if that reality was created/defined by a Creator.

    So in this context I will admit that free will is an illusion.

    We only have free choice in the context of which choices were laid out for us.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 46 by Asgara, posted 12-30-2006 12:33 AM Asgara has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 63 by Jon, posted 07-15-2015 8:01 PM Phat has responded
     Message 64 by 1.61803, posted 07-16-2015 10:07 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15361
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 65 of 1406 (762786)
    07-16-2015 10:18 AM
    Reply to: Message 63 by Jon
    07-15-2015 8:01 PM


    Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
    Jon writes:

    No one has ever considered that.

    Are you sure?

    Maybe no one at EvC has...I dunno...I've never taken a poll....

    I suppose we need to attempt to define what is and is not possible for humans to do/be/act/think.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 63 by Jon, posted 07-15-2015 8:01 PM Jon has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 77 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 1:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 96 by Jon, posted 07-16-2015 7:30 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15361
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 66 of 1406 (762788)
    07-16-2015 10:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 9 by New Cat's Eye
    12-28-2006 5:23 PM


    God as Chaparone
    Cat Sci in 2006 writes:

    I believe that god is omnipotent. One way I can look at it is that even if he is omnipotent, and has the capability of doing anything, wouldn't he also have the ability to elect to not use his ability. In that way he could maintain omnipotence and 'allow' us to have free will (like, just be sitting up there in all his power but not meddling in our affairs.) A semi-deist perspective I guess.

    I didn't realize that you had been here for 10 years, Cat. As you reread your old perspectives on this topic, do you have any new insights on this age old hypothetical topic?

    I currently believe and think that God may well foreknow everything that is destined to happen and yet we humans have no right to call that evil since we ourselves don't know our own destinies at this point. Our best course of action, in my mind, would be to act as if God was not a chaperone on a date and just do what we really want to do anyway.

    Believers could pray and unbelievers could simply carry on as they always do...because even if our destinies were foreknown and mapped out for us, we have little recourse apart from living one day at a time.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-28-2006 5:23 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 68 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 11:04 AM Phat has responded
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15361
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 67 of 1406 (762791)
    07-16-2015 11:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 64 by 1.61803
    07-16-2015 10:07 AM


    Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
    1.61803 writes:

    Think about it. If he already knew Lucifer would rebel then even Lucifer was condemned at the moment of his creation.
    That just does not seem logical.

    Lucifer was condemned because he chose rebellion. The fact that God knew about it does not strip Lucifer of the power to make the decision.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 64 by 1.61803, posted 07-16-2015 10:07 AM 1.61803 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 84 by 1.61803, posted 07-16-2015 1:53 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15361
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 69 of 1406 (762793)
    07-16-2015 11:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 68 by jar
    07-16-2015 11:04 AM


    Re: God as Chaparone
    Did it ever occur to you that if we indeed did feel the way you describe, our efforts at opposing the monster would become our destiny?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 68 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 11:04 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 70 by ringo, posted 07-16-2015 11:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 74 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 12:14 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15361
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 79 of 1406 (762825)
    07-16-2015 1:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 68 by jar
    07-16-2015 11:04 AM


    Foreknowledge and Free Will
    You and I have argued and discussed the free will concept before, but I want to bring it up again in the hope that at least from my perspective i have matured and hopefully understand it better.

    If I recall correctly, your basic position on it is this:

    jar writes:

    If GOD is the creator, GOD creates everyone.

    If GOD then chooses only some of those She creates and condemns the others, then GOD creates only to punish.

    If GOD foreknows the results and still goes on to create folk, then GOD creates only to punish.

    What other way could we describe a GOD who had foreknowledge?

    Does having foreknowledge in and of itself imply evil IF some of the created beings end up evil?

    Edited by Phat, : title


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 68 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 11:04 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 81 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 1:47 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15361
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 83 of 1406 (762831)
    07-16-2015 1:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 81 by jar
    07-16-2015 1:47 PM


    Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
    I still don't get it. I reread some of our old discussions, hoping to understand the basic argument. I confess im still in the dark on this one.

    jar writes:

    If God knows the end results then all of the responsibility for the end result lies with God.

    For starters, why would GOD be responsible if somehow I chose a life of comfort and laziness and didn't give a hoot about my neighbors or my country? Many have said that GOD sees things as an eternal "now" and not in the future. Thus....if GOD created me and foreknew my idiocy, are you telling me I would have a case that this foreknowledge was evil?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 81 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 1:47 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 85 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 1:55 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15361
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 86 of 1406 (762837)
    07-16-2015 1:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 85 by jar
    07-16-2015 1:55 PM


    Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
    I believe so.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 85 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 1:55 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 87 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 2:05 PM Phat has responded
     Message 97 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 9:12 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
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