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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
jar
Member (Idle past 444 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 1444 (762792)
07-16-2015 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
07-16-2015 10:33 AM


Re: God as Chaparone
Phat writes:
I currently believe and think that God may well foreknow everything that is destined to happen and yet we humans have no right to call that evil since we ourselves don't know our own destinies at this point.
Sorry Phat but that describes an evil, vile, disgusting God unworthy of worship, respect or allegiance. Not only do we have a right to call that evil, we have a duty to oppose and decry such a monster.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 10:33 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 11:27 AM jar has replied
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 1:42 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 444 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 74 of 1444 (762799)
07-16-2015 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
07-16-2015 11:27 AM


Re: God as Chaparone
Phat writes:
Did it ever occur to you that if we indeed did feel the way you describe, our efforts at opposing the monster would become our destiny?
Only if we actually thought there was even an outside chance such a ridiculous thing really existed otherwise our proper behavior is to just laugh at the concept and pity those who actually think such a creature worthy of belief or worship.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 11:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 1:44 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 444 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 1444 (762828)
07-16-2015 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
07-16-2015 1:42 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
Does having foreknowledge in and of itself imply evil IF some of the created beings end up evil?
AbsoDamnlutely.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 1:42 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 1:51 PM jar has replied
 Message 309 by Phat, posted 08-01-2015 1:51 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 444 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 82 of 1444 (762829)
07-16-2015 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ICANT
07-16-2015 1:44 PM


Re: God as Chaparone
Sorry but what does any of that word salad have to do with the topic or any posts in the thread or to the comment you are responding to?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 1:44 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 444 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 1444 (762836)
07-16-2015 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
07-16-2015 1:51 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Shhesh.
Did God create you?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 1:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 1:59 PM jar has replied
 Message 527 by Phat, posted 09-06-2016 6:45 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 444 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 87 of 1444 (762839)
07-16-2015 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
07-16-2015 1:59 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Then if that God creates something that will be damned then that God is evil by definition.
It is the very act of that creation that damns such a God.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 1:59 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 2:10 PM jar has replied
 Message 540 by Phat, posted 12-06-2016 6:57 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 444 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 1444 (762841)
07-16-2015 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
07-16-2015 2:10 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
Are you saying that if, for example, you and I could at this moment open a Big Book that showed my future written down by GOD and that my future (in the book) turned out to be an evil one that it would thus be my duty and obligation to oppose such a plot and to oppose the author of such a plot? (if so, I am beginning to understand your perspective)
For the record, I don't believe that I am powerless at this moment in time to influence my own future. My future is based in part on the decisions that I make on a daily basis.
If we could prove that GOD foreknew our futures, would that in and of itself be a valid gripe against Him?
No, that is certainly not what I am saying but if there was such a book and you did read it you would be a fool to ever worship or respect such a God.
If God has foreknowledge and creates someone who will get damned then that God is evil.
It really is that simple. What the person does or does not do or what choices the person makes or does not make are totally irrelevant. The God is evil simply based on the act of creation.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 2:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 2:31 PM jar has replied
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 07-20-2015 11:25 AM jar has seen this message but not replied
 Message 543 by Phat, posted 12-06-2016 7:33 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 444 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 93 of 1444 (762848)
07-16-2015 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
07-16-2015 2:31 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
Hypothetically, does this include "fallen" angels? If God created angels foreknowing that a third of them would rebel and actualize destiny, would it be God who was evil or would it be "evil" that sought to be like God?
Of course it would make that God evil but there is nothing at all evil about being like God. In fact the Bible tells us that humans are just like God except they do not live forever.
The idea that trying to become God or be like God is wrong or evil is just another Christian Cult of Ignorance con job.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 2:31 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 2:40 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 444 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 1444 (762851)
07-16-2015 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
07-16-2015 2:40 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
Of course, we are exhorted to become "like Jesus".
Becoming like Jesus is one thing..."becoming Jesus" will likely get you thrown in a mental ward.
You keep conflating what the Bible says and what the Christian Cult of Ignorance propaganda says.
I did not mention Jesus and of course Jesus is irrelevant when talking about the Bible saying that we are already like God except we do not live forever.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 2:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 9:15 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 444 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 99 of 1444 (762866)
07-16-2015 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by ICANT
07-16-2015 9:15 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Yes, anything born dies. Sorry but that is a fact.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 9:15 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2015 2:00 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 444 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 101 of 1444 (762881)
07-17-2015 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by ICANT
07-17-2015 2:00 AM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Enoch and Elijah haven't died yet.
So you claim but there is no evidence to support that assertion.
Mankind was created an eternal being and will live somewhere eternally.
Well, the first statement is most certainly false according to the Bible and again, there is no evidence to support your latter assertion.
Those who are born again of the Spirit will live with God their father eternally all others will live with their father the devil.
Sorry but that is simply utter nonsense and if it were true then it would be proof that the God you market is vile, evil and unworthy of respect or worship.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2015 2:00 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2015 11:17 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 444 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 106 of 1444 (762945)
07-18-2015 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by ICANT
07-17-2015 11:17 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
So as expected from the Christian Cult of Ignorance you offer no attempt to explain or justify the vile, evil and unworthy of respect or worship God you try to market and offer only a silly veiled threat, "FUD".
That may well work for some but it certainly does not fly here.
Pitiful.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2015 11:17 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-18-2015 9:05 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 444 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 115 of 1444 (763114)
07-21-2015 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Stile
07-21-2015 9:01 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
It has nothing to do with what choices the person makes but rather the choice that the God made.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 9:01 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 10:39 AM jar has not replied
 Message 117 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 10:50 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 444 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 1444 (763118)
07-21-2015 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Stile
07-21-2015 10:50 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
But neither of you are asking "What did the God do?" and that is the issue.
The God created the human and if that God had foreknowledge that that creation would be damned regardless of whether or not the creation had freewill, then that God is vile and evil.
What the person does and whether or not it is done through freewill is totally irrelevant.
It is only the acts of the God that are relevant.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 10:50 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 11:45 AM jar has replied
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 11:45 AM jar has not replied
 Message 560 by Phat, posted 07-10-2017 11:38 AM jar has replied
 Message 1036 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 11:42 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 444 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 122 of 1444 (763128)
07-21-2015 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Stile
07-21-2015 11:45 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
What I'm saying, though, is... what if that's now how God created us?
What if God created us with actual free-will?
That is, at the point of creation (of, say, the universe...), God does not know if I'm going to take the left path or the right path 15 billion years later in 2025.
Then, immediately after we were created "with free-will"... then God looks into the future and "de-scribes" my choice of picking the left path in 2015...
And my example is exactly as I described it.
That, I would say, would be free-will.
Even though today (in 2015) God has perfect foreknowledge of my choice in 2025.
Just as I will have perfect aft-knowledge of my choice once 2030 rolls around.
I guess it depends on if you think God created us with foreknowledge of what we're going to do at the time of creation or not.
I don't see why that has to be one way or the other.
And if done correctly, we certainly could have been created without foreknowledge while God still has complete foreknowledge of everything "for all time" (time being an element/dimension of our universe).
If God does not know which path you will take until after creating you then God did not create you with foreknowledge.
It really is that simple.
Edited by jar, : hit wrong key

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 11:45 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 11:55 AM jar has replied
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 11:59 AM jar has not replied

  
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