Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9077 total)
122 online now:
AZPaul3, nwr, PaulK, Tanypteryx, Theodoric (5 members, 117 visitors)
Newest Member: Contrarian
Post Volume: Total: 894,077 Year: 5,189/6,534 Month: 32/577 Week: 20/80 Day: 7/13 Hour: 5/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 1406 (372602)
12-28-2006 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kader
12-28-2006 1:13 PM


Omnipotence trumps all

I don't understand how can we have free will if God is Omnipotent and Omniscient.

If God exists and is omnipotent then he is capable of anything, by definition. He is even capable of that which is logically impossible. He is even capable of allowing free will to coexist with his omniscience.

If you say that he is not capable of even one thing, us having free will while he is omniscient, then he isn't omnipotent but something very close to it although still not it. So, if God is omnipotent then the coexistance of our free will and his omniscience has to be at least possible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Kader, posted 12-28-2006 1:13 PM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Kader, posted 12-28-2006 4:05 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 5 by mick, posted 12-28-2006 4:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 389 by Phat, posted 04-20-2016 8:14 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 1406 (372614)
12-28-2006 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Kader
12-28-2006 4:05 PM


Re: Omnipotence trumps all
Or maybe simply that the bible and the tora and the qu'ran are wrong ?
Why dismiss that possibility ?

I haven't.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Kader, posted 12-28-2006 4:05 PM Kader has taken no action

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 1406 (372617)
12-28-2006 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by mick
12-28-2006 4:08 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
If God is capable of things which are logically impossible, then we cn make any claim about him which we see fit.

...

Anything is possible for an omnipotent God, right?

Right.

Is this just some kind of generic get-out clause for Christians to make nonsensical claims about God?

No, its an explanation for how free will can coexist with an omnipotent/omniscient god. You know, what was asked in the OP.

But I could certainly use it that way if you want me too.

More to the point, he might have created us with free will but the inability to choose to harm each other. If God is capable of logical impossibilities then he is capable of creating this kind of free will. The fact that he did not do so suggests that he is not a God of love, because he chose to introduce the capacity for violence into human beings (and being omniscient he knew well that this would ultimately result in Hitler's gas chambers).

But if he is omnipotent then, by definition, he could exist as a God of love while he created us with free will but the inability to choose to harm each other.

The fact that he did not do so suggests that he is not a God of love, because he chose to introduce the capacity for violence into human beings (and being omniscient he knew well that this would ultimately result in Hitler's gas chambers).

If you want to use that to argue that an omnipotent god is not capable of something then you're no longer arguing about an omnipotent god.

Omnipotence is rediculous.

Of course, God might be both a God of love and simultaneously a God of evil, since he is capable of logical impossibilities...

Exactly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by mick, posted 12-28-2006 4:08 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by mick, posted 12-28-2006 4:43 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 1406 (372623)
12-28-2006 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by mick
12-28-2006 4:43 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
If omnipotence is ridiculous because it entails logical impossibilites of the type outlined in the opening post, then does the existence of free will necessitate that God is impotent?

Honestly I don't know. I'd have to go with a jar-like response to this one (sorry).

If god is omnipotent then he is omnipotent regardless of any logical conclusion we can come up with that he isn't.

I believe that god is omnipotent. One way I can look at it is that even if he is omnipotent, and has the capability of doing anything, wouldn't he also have the ability to elect to not use his ability. In that way he could maintain omnipotence and 'allow' us to have free will (like, just be sitting up there in all his power but not mettling in our affairs.) A semi-deist perspective I guess.

Personally, if one guy decides to shoot another while god is omnipotent, I don't think that means that god must have pulled the trigger. Just becuase he was capable doesn't mean he had to, especially is he wants to let us do the pulling.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by mick, posted 12-28-2006 4:43 PM mick has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Kader, posted 12-28-2006 5:32 PM New Cat's Eye has taken no action
 Message 11 by sidelined, posted 12-28-2006 5:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 10:33 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 1406 (372657)
12-28-2006 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by sidelined
12-28-2006 5:56 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
Can God be both Omnipotent and not Omnipotent at the same time in logical contradiction?

why not?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by sidelined, posted 12-28-2006 5:56 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by nator, posted 12-28-2006 10:02 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 15 by VerifyMe, posted 12-29-2006 1:15 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 18 by sidelined, posted 12-29-2006 2:29 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 1406 (372661)
12-28-2006 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by nator
12-28-2006 10:02 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
So, what you seem to be saying is that God is logically-impossible.

An omnipotent god could logically be both possible and impossible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by nator, posted 12-28-2006 10:02 PM nator has taken no action

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 1406 (372731)
12-29-2006 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by VerifyMe
12-29-2006 1:15 AM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
Could God create a rock so heavy that even he could not move it?

That's kindof a non-question, but...

An omnipotent god could create a rock so heavy that he could not move it while simultaneously being able to move it, existing in logical contradiction, and not, forever and instantly, in the past and the future.

I mean, how far(ridiculous) do we have to take this?

What's the point?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by VerifyMe, posted 12-29-2006 1:15 AM VerifyMe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by VerifyMe, posted 12-29-2006 4:30 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 1406 (372795)
12-29-2006 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by sidelined
12-29-2006 2:29 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
How about Omnipotent and powerless at the same time?

Why not?

That's the same question. What's your point? Let's cut to the chase...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by sidelined, posted 12-29-2006 2:29 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by sidelined, posted 12-29-2006 3:14 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 1406 (372803)
12-29-2006 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by sidelined
12-29-2006 3:14 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
That's the same question

Actually it is not since non omnipotence can be any level up to but falling short of omnipotence itself.

You're right, I overlooked that.

How about Omnipotent and powerless at the same time?

The reason I would say that he could is becuase if I said that he couldn't then it wouldn't be omnipotence in the first place.

Anyway we need to resolve how a God can engage in the logical impossibilities if he is powerless and how such a state{ Omnipotence and impotence} can been considered achievable even in a world without rules of logic.

If it is omnipotence then everything is acheivable. Why do we have to come up with how its possible?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by sidelined, posted 12-29-2006 3:14 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by sidelined, posted 12-29-2006 4:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 1406 (372809)
12-29-2006 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by sidelined
12-29-2006 4:08 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
Because while the omnipotence side of the equation works at the same time we have powerlessness which negates the ability so it now becomes a case concerning what it means to allow for logical impossibilities.

Honestly, I don't think it means very much.

It might even be meaningless.

Can we indeed allow for logical impossibility while at the same time maintaining a definition of Omnipotence and powerlessness whose states depend upon logical structures in order to define them?

Ummmmmmm........no?

I don't really know.

I'd say that you can't really maintain the definition of omnipotence if you not going to allow it to include logical impossibilities.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by sidelined, posted 12-29-2006 4:08 PM sidelined has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by nator, posted 12-29-2006 6:04 PM New Cat's Eye has taken no action

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 1406 (372812)
12-29-2006 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by VerifyMe
12-29-2006 4:30 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
My point is how rediculous god is starting to sound.

Becuase of the omnipotence, which I admitted was ridiculous in Message 7.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by VerifyMe, posted 12-29-2006 4:30 PM VerifyMe has taken no action

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 102 of 1406 (762891)
07-17-2015 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
07-16-2015 10:33 AM


Re: God as Chaparone
I didn't realize that you had been here for 10 years, Cat. As you reread your old perspectives on this topic, do you have any new insights on this age old hypothetical topic?

Not really. I still think that omnipotence is ridiculous.

I currently believe and think that God may well foreknow everything that is destined to happen and yet we humans have no right to call that evil since we ourselves don't know our own destinies at this point.

I could argue it either way or both.

Its not something that is grounded in reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 10:33 AM Phat has seen this message

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 107 of 1406 (762956)
07-18-2015 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
07-18-2015 8:41 AM


"My God can beat up your God!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 07-18-2015 8:41 AM jar has seen this message

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 169 of 1406 (763222)
07-22-2015 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Phat
07-22-2015 1:57 PM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Is it logical for the Creator of all seen and unseen to not know the future? Is there any particular reason that we dare imagine a God who not only does not know the future but is essentially amoral? Not personable?

Gen 18:20-21

quote:
Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

So much for "all-knowing", no?

And yet humans are supposed to correct this God when God gets something wrong!! Unbelievable!

Abraham goes on to plead with the Lord to spare Sodom for the sake of the righteous people that might live there and he ends up changing the Lord's mind.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 07-22-2015 1:57 PM Phat has taken no action

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 193 of 1406 (763301)
07-23-2015 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by jar
07-23-2015 11:56 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Why would I prefer one accomplishment over another?

Some are better than others.

I'm more proud of earning my degree than I am of showing up to work on time today.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by jar, posted 07-23-2015 11:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by jar, posted 07-23-2015 4:36 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 203 by ringo, posted 07-24-2015 12:00 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022