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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
We don't have the freedom to circumvent gravity either.
Perhaps what frustrates many is the idea that we can never really freely choose anything that altars what must be...so in that sense we don't have freedom to circumvent God.
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
We can choose opposing the monster under the bed as our destiny... or... we can see whether the monster under the bed actually has any effect on our lives - and if not, we can ignore it.
Did it ever occur to you that if we indeed did feel the way you describe, our efforts at opposing the monster would become our destiny?
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
As a teacher of mine used to say, if you can't explain it to an eight-year-old you don't understand it. On the other hand, a lot of what an eight-year-old understands is nonsense.
Kader writes: It is easy to grasp if you have at least a 5th grade education. If its easy to grasp, it must be easy to explain ?
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
It's not about the understander; it's about the explainer.
An eleven year old can understand it.
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
I'm suggesting that that explainer isn't you. You haven't succeeded in explaining anything yet, which is why I suggest that you don't really understand what you're trying to explain.
I would think that for a eleven year old to understand it there would have to be someone that could explain it where the eleven year old could understand it.
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
In Matthew 7:23 Jesus was referring specifically to false prophets but more generally to doing good works as opposed to paying lip service to religion. He used the word "know" not in the sense of knowing facts but in the sense of knowing a person. What he was saying was, "You were never my friend." It has nothing to do with omniscience. In fact, the implication was that He DID omnisciently know all along that you weren't his friend, even though you claimed you were.
Im saying that God knows when we freely choose Him and doesn't know when we freely choose otherwise. (depart from me I never knew you)
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I think you can't have your cake and eat it too. So Ringo, whats your opinion on the whole foreknowledge freewill philosophy? If God has foreknowledge of evil and doesn't act on it, then He's evil. If He doesn't have foreknowledge, He may well have other limitations. In His "communion" with you, He may be exaggerating His powers. If He holds us responsible for our free choices, He must be held responsible for His. In summary, I don't think either "free will" or "omniscience" is a very useful concept.
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
How can you possibly excuse a God who would not stop him?
What if at exactly this moment, another serial killer had just purchased a large cache of weapons and was heading towards the High School. Phat writes:
I don't.
Also assume that the "Prime Directive" of Star Trek is logical. Phat writes:
EVERYBODY, natural or supernatural, should do as much good as possible as often as possible.
Should God also restrain Himself or should he supernaturally zap this threat from among us?
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jar writes:
If there is a god with a timeless moral system, I don't see how that's relevant to us.
Of course that position assumes that God is using the same moral system and perspective as we are and our moral system and perspective is malleable and changes with time, culture, era, society and mythos.
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
From God's point of view, He's always right (unless He changes His mind). If we have "free will", we should be free to consider God wrong, from our point of view.
So the only way to truly have free will is if God is wrong occasionally?
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Clearly not, because according to your theology if we disagree with him we go directly to hell. Once again, a choice between ice cream and a sharp stick in the eye is NOT a free choice.
His allowing us to even have free will was allowing us to even have a point of view apart from His. Perhaps He wanted us to have the freedom to disagree with Him.
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Cat Sci writes:
From your employer's point of view, showing up for work is probably more important than your degree. He lost interest in that right after he decided to hired you.
I'm more proud of earning my degree than I am of showing up to work on time today.
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
cat Sci writes:
Maybe you need to reassess what you're proud of. Bring it up to date.
What does that have to do with what I am proud of?
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Have you heard of Jesus at all?
Ringo seems to think that anytime anyone (human or Deity) can do good they should do good.
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No, God is perfectly welcome to go through my files. Personally I think that what annoys many people is the whole idea that they can never decide to do something apart from what God knows. What annoys me is the idea that God already has my place in Hell reserved, that I don't even know yet what it is that will send me there but He does - and YOU have the gall to suggest that its my choice.
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