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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 61 of 858 (762759)
07-15-2015 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Phat
07-15-2015 5:27 AM


Re: Free Will Remix
Phat writes:

Perhaps what frustrates many is the idea that we can never really freely choose anything that altars what must be...so in that sense we don't have freedom to circumvent God.


We don't have the freedom to circumvent gravity either.

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 Message 59 by Phat, posted 07-15-2015 5:27 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 70 of 858 (762795)
07-16-2015 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
07-16-2015 11:27 AM


Re: God as Chaparone
Phat writes:

Did it ever occur to you that if we indeed did feel the way you describe, our efforts at opposing the monster would become our destiny?


We can choose opposing the monster under the bed as our destiny... or... we can see whether the monster under the bed actually has any effect on our lives - and if not, we can ignore it.

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 Message 69 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 11:27 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 72 of 858 (762797)
07-16-2015 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by ICANT
07-16-2015 11:54 AM


ICANT writes:

Kader writes:

If its easy to grasp, it must be easy to explain ?

It is easy to grasp if you have at least a 5th grade education.

As a teacher of mine used to say, if you can't explain it to an eight-year-old you don't understand it. On the other hand, a lot of what an eight-year-old understands is nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 11:54 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 1:26 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 103 of 858 (762893)
07-17-2015 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by ICANT
07-16-2015 1:26 PM


ICANT writes:

An eleven year old can understand it.


It's not about the understander; it's about the explainer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 1:26 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2015 11:20 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 108 of 858 (762963)
07-18-2015 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by ICANT
07-17-2015 11:20 PM


ICANT writes:

I would think that for a eleven year old to understand it there would have to be someone that could explain it where the eleven year old could understand it.


I'm suggesting that that explainer isn't you. You haven't succeeded in explaining anything yet, which is why I suggest that you don't really understand what you're trying to explain.

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 Message 105 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2015 11:20 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 127 of 858 (763133)
07-21-2015 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
07-21-2015 7:13 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:

Im saying that God knows when we freely choose Him and doesn't know when we freely choose otherwise. (depart from me I never knew you)


In Matthew 7:23 Jesus was referring specifically to false prophets but more generally to doing good works as opposed to paying lip service to religion. He used the word "know" not in the sense of knowing facts but in the sense of knowing a person. What he was saying was, "You were never my friend." It has nothing to do with omniscience. In fact, the implication was that He DID omnisciently know all along that you weren't his friend, even though you claimed you were.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 7:13 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 12:05 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 130 of 858 (763143)
07-21-2015 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Phat
07-21-2015 12:05 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:

So Ringo, whats your opinion on the whole foreknowledge freewill philosophy?


I think you can't have your cake and eat it too.

If God has foreknowledge of evil and doesn't act on it, then He's evil.

If He doesn't have foreknowledge, He may well have other limitations. In His "communion" with you, He may be exaggerating His powers.

If He holds us responsible for our free choices, He must be held responsible for His.

In summary, I don't think either "free will" or "omniscience" is a very useful concept.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 12:05 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 12:29 PM ringo has responded
 Message 156 by Stile, posted 07-22-2015 8:48 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 847 by Phat, posted 03-06-2019 2:30 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 133 of 858 (763146)
07-21-2015 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Phat
07-21-2015 12:29 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:

What if at exactly this moment, another serial killer had just purchased a large cache of weapons and was heading towards the High School.


How can you possibly excuse a God who would not stop him?

Phat writes:

Also assume that the "Prime Directive" of Star Trek is logical.


I don't.

Phat writes:

Should God also restrain Himself or should he supernaturally zap this threat from among us?


EVERYBODY, natural or supernatural, should do as much good as possible as often as possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 12:29 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 1:00 PM ringo has responded
 Message 637 by Phat, posted 01-09-2019 3:50 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 135 of 858 (763150)
07-21-2015 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by jar
07-21-2015 1:00 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
jar writes:

Of course that position assumes that God is using the same moral system and perspective as we are and our moral system and perspective is malleable and changes with time, culture, era, society and mythos.


If there is a god with a timeless moral system, I don't see how that's relevant to us.

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 Message 134 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 1:00 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 1:11 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 161 of 858 (763200)
07-22-2015 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Phat
07-22-2015 11:08 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Phat writes:

So the only way to truly have free will is if God is wrong occasionally?


From God's point of view, He's always right (unless He changes His mind). If we have "free will", we should be free to consider God wrong, from our point of view.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Phat, posted 07-22-2015 11:08 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 07-22-2015 2:02 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 189 of 858 (763286)
07-23-2015 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Phat
07-22-2015 2:02 PM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Phat writes:

His allowing us to even have free will was allowing us to even have a point of view apart from His. Perhaps He wanted us to have the freedom to disagree with Him.


Clearly not, because according to your theology if we disagree with him we go directly to hell. Once again, a choice between ice cream and a sharp stick in the eye is NOT a free choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 07-22-2015 2:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 677 by Phat, posted 01-11-2019 3:13 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 203 of 858 (763401)
07-24-2015 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by New Cat's Eye
07-23-2015 1:40 PM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Cat Sci writes:

I'm more proud of earning my degree than I am of showing up to work on time today.


From your employer's point of view, showing up for work is probably more important than your degree. He lost interest in that right after he decided to hired you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2015 1:40 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2015 1:13 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 206 of 858 (763408)
07-24-2015 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by New Cat's Eye
07-24-2015 1:13 PM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
cat Sci writes:

What does that have to do with what I am proud of?


Maybe you need to reassess what you're proud of. Bring it up to date.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2015 1:13 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 225 of 858 (765320)
07-27-2015 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Phat
07-26-2015 7:39 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:

Ringo seems to think that anytime anyone (human or Deity) can do good they should do good.


Have you heard of Jesus at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Phat, posted 07-26-2015 7:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 242 of 858 (765382)
07-28-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Phat
07-28-2015 1:41 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:

Personally I think that what annoys many people is the whole idea that they can never decide to do something apart from what God knows.


No, God is perfectly welcome to go through my files.

What annoys me is the idea that God already has my place in Hell reserved, that I don't even know yet what it is that will send me there but He does - and YOU have the gall to suggest that its my choice.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Phat, posted 07-28-2015 1:41 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 07-28-2015 11:36 PM ringo has responded
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 11:50 PM ringo has responded
 Message 643 by Phat, posted 01-09-2019 4:32 PM ringo has responded

  
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