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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
GDR
Member (Idle past 242 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 204 of 1406 (763403)
07-24-2015 12:43 PM


The future is not there to be known
I tend to look at this in a different way. IMHO God knows all of the past as past , is aware of all that is happening and aware of what will happen if they are the inevitable results of natural law or anything that is of divine intervention. I contend that He is not aware of other future events as they are contingent on the freedom of His creatures. That future is open and unknowable, even to God.

There are cases in the OT that show God to be bargaining with mankind. In the NT we see Jesus praying in Gethsemane to about not having to go into Jerusalem knowing what happened to those who do what He was about to do, so I contend that my view is Biblical.

Again IMHO God has chosen to create a world where the future is open, with His creatures having the free will that will form the future. If God has chosen to create a world in which He is unable to know what I will have for lunch next Wednesday then that does not negate the idea that He is omnipotent. (Although I don't think that omnipotent is a particularly useful word in this context.)

Edited by GDR, : Badly worded. Memo to self -proof read


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Phat, posted 07-25-2015 2:00 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 242 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 316 of 1406 (765635)
08-02-2015 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by jar
08-01-2015 5:44 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
jar writes:

There was someone else, I think his name was Jesus. It is recorded in a book called the Bible. Maybe you should read it sometime.

jar writes:

Shall I go on Phat?

Jesus says we should try to feed the hungry, comfort the sorrowful, cloth the naked, teach the children, heal the sick.

Granted the version you like is certainly easier and a much easier thing to sell the gullible.

Firstly jar I seldom reply to you as your primary form of argument is to insult, condescend and ridicule which doesn't lead to any meaningful discussion, nor does it make a point. To Phat's credit when you post in the way that I have quoted he doesn't reply in kind.

I'm sure Phat has spent a great deal deal of time reading the Bible, and to suggest he hasn't as he doesn't come to the same conclusion as you have doesn't contribute to the discussion.

I have no problem with you wanting to call yourself a Christian. As you have pointed out you grew up in a Christian culture, attend and are active in a Christian church. However the views that you espouse are those of a theist believing in some form of deity that wants us to do our best to be nice, and nothing more. There is nothing wrong with that and it is a good thing. (Mind you, the tone of many of your posts don't reflect those views IMHO). Your views could be shared by people of nearly any faith or by an atheist. However, it isn't Christian

If Jesus was simply a man who taught and went to his death like any other philosopher or prophet, and was not resurrected as the Gospels tell us, and as Paul confirms, then there is no basis for the Christian church. If Jesus was not resurrected then he was not only mistaken about a great deal but was highly delusional. Why would you want to follow a man like that?

Why don't you call yourself a Gandhian. Gandhi espoused the same views as Jesus without making any of the claims about himself in the manner that Jesus did. You could even call yourself a moderate Muslim if you wanted.

I am in agreement that the Bible was written by men and we have to interpret it as such. However, it is clear the the NT authors were in agreement that Jesus rose in a re-embodied form and that they were followers of Jesus based on that.

I believe as did the NT authors that it actually happened that way and I even contend that there is good historical evidence to believe that way. It can't be proven, but that belief is foundational to the Christian faith.

Edited by GDR, : stucture


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by jar, posted 08-01-2015 5:44 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by jar, posted 08-03-2015 9:03 AM GDR has responded
 Message 335 by ringo, posted 08-04-2015 11:54 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 242 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 319 of 1406 (765647)
08-03-2015 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by jar
08-03-2015 9:03 AM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
jar writes:

But I am not a Gandhian or a moderate Muslim and to call myself either would simply be a lie.


Sure, but those that are could hold the same beliefs that you do. Muslims view Jesus as a prophet and Gandhi says that he admired the teachings of Jesus. That doesn't make them Christians.

jar writes:

But I have never said there was nothing more; what I have said is that Jesus said the important job for us is to try to do. That is paramount.

Sure, but all of mankind has been called by Jesus to follow His message of loving your neighbour which is a teaching common to virtually all religions and cultures to one degree or another. That doesn't make everyone a Christian.

jar writes:

Most of the other things as you point out were creations of those who were creating and marketing a new product; Christianity.

Exactly my point. You have chosen to believe that the account of the resurrection specifically, but also that other aspects of the actions and teachings of Jesus were fabrications. It is those things that you don't believe that differentiate Christianity from other religions.

And I have never disputed that the folk creating Christianity (at least those who were creating the surviving chapters of Club Christian) believed those things. But those things are not what Jesus taught or Jesus mission or Jesus ministry.

That just isn't correct. Yes Jesus taught those things. I'd suggest that you are making the same mistake that Faith does in making it all about personal salvation. Yes, Jesus taught that as individuals we are made right with God by having loving hearts which manifests itself in our actions.

He also taught a lot more than that. Just for a start He obviously saw himself leading a messianic movement which was to be a position held by one who saw himself as the anointed one of God. He also saw himself as more than that by calling himself the "Son of Man" with the obvious reference to Daniel 7 where He is given dominion and seated with the "Ancient of Days".

You apparently reject those things which are specifically Christian and accept only the aspects of the faith that are generally believed by presumably everyone on this forum from atheist to fundamentalist.

If Jesus did make those claims and those things aren't true then Jesus was, as I said, delusional and why would anyone want to follow the teachings of one who was delusional? If the stories told by the Gospel writers, and Paul for that matter, were fabrications then why bother with Christianity or the church? Better to follow Gandhi or Buddha. Also, if they were fabrications then why believe anything they said about what Jesus said and did?

Your views are a series of good ideas common to many Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists etc. From what I have read of yours there is nothing that you believe that is specific to the Christian church. As I said if you want to call yourself a Christian then fine, but there appears to be nothing you believe that makes you a Christian other than the fact that you are part of a Christian culture and participate in a Christian church.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by jar, posted 08-03-2015 9:03 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by Bliyaal, posted 08-03-2015 2:58 PM GDR has responded
 Message 321 by Faith, posted 08-03-2015 3:00 PM GDR has responded
 Message 333 by jar, posted 08-04-2015 9:35 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 242 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 323 of 1406 (765660)
08-03-2015 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Bliyaal
08-03-2015 2:58 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Billyaal writes:

I remember Jar mentionning the Nicene Creed many times as the core of his beliefs saying. Maybe you shouldn't accuse him of disbelieving things too quickly.


I'm also basing it on what jar has said on this and other threads.

Billyaal writes:

By the way, let me ask you a question. How is important the suffering, death and resurection of Jesus in you beliefs and more importantly, why?


If Jesus isn't resurrected then the whole Christian faith is meaningless. If it is the truth then we should pay attention to what He has to say as God has confirmed and vindicated Jesus' life and message.

Billyaal writes:

Does it really change the message of Jesus' teachings? You sound like you want/need Christianity to be special like nothing else. Seriously, who cares if the message is the same as long as it's for the better good?

It does change the message because if Jesus wasn't resurrected then he was just another messianic failure and delusional to boot, so there is no good reason to pay any attention to what He had to say.

You can get that same message of love and peace from other sources. As I said, try Buddha or Gandhi.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Bliyaal, posted 08-03-2015 2:58 PM Bliyaal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Bliyaal, posted 08-04-2015 7:37 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 332 by Stile, posted 08-04-2015 9:27 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 336 by ringo, posted 08-04-2015 11:57 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 242 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 324 of 1406 (765662)
08-03-2015 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by Faith
08-03-2015 3:00 PM


Re: Jesus' mission not limited to individual salvation
Faith writes:

Comparing my views to jar's in any way whatever is extremely misleading. We have NOTHING in common in our views of Christianity.


You know that I realize that your views are very different than jar's. Where I draw the parallel is that your view is roughly that you are saved so that you don't go to hell and you have your views on how that happens. Jar's view is, (although he doesn't phrase it this way), is simply that you do your best to be good and that is what makes you right with God.

Without quoting everything you said I probably agree with more than you think I do. I agree that it is God that changes our heart but that is not restricted to Christians. I contend that that still small voice of our conscience is God touching our hearts which is there for all mankind.

I also agree that if we truly give our hearts over to Jesus, with His life and teaching then we do have what you can call a born again experience, where God will renew our hearts and take us into His Kingdom. However the point is that this is done for a purpose. As Christians we have a job to do which is to reflect the love of God into all His creation. Individual salvation is fine but the main point is that we are saved for a purpose and not just to avoid hell.

This of course also does not mean that everyone else is going to hell. The Gospels tell us just the opposite, as jar points out by quoting from Matthew 25 with the sheep and the goats.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Faith, posted 08-03-2015 3:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by Faith, posted 08-03-2015 10:40 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 334 by jar, posted 08-04-2015 9:41 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 242 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 652 of 1406 (846657)
01-09-2019 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by jar
08-04-2015 9:41 AM


Re: Jesus' mission not limited to individual salvation
jar writes:

I have no idea of what would make me right with God but the Bible and the words attributed to Jesus sure in hell tell us what would get us on God's wrong side.

I would put it diggerently. The words attributed to Jesus tell us how our lives should be lived which is essentially the Golden Rule. What gets us on God's wrong side is to go against that rule.

To quote you, "It really is that simple"

Another thing that is really simple is that it's good to see you back here again. I hope all is well.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by jar, posted 08-04-2015 9:41 AM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 654 by Phat, posted 01-10-2019 3:44 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 242 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 676 of 1406 (846734)
01-11-2019 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 654 by Phat
01-10-2019 3:44 AM


Re: Jesus' mission not limited to individual salvation
Phat writes:

Notice the date of his post, GDR. jar has not yet returned.


Rats. Thanks.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 654 by Phat, posted 01-10-2019 3:44 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 242 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 750 of 1406 (848660)
02-12-2019 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 747 by Phat
02-12-2019 1:16 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Hi Phat

I'm sorry for the trials you are facing. I have no idea if the will help or not but here is a talk given by Rob Bell a couple of years ago.

Take care, and thanks for all that you contribute to this forum both as a moderator and participant with your openness and your insights.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 1:16 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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