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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
jaywill
Member (Idle past 832 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 378 of 1406 (782174)
04-19-2016 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 377 by Hyroglyphx
01-08-2016 6:03 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
quote:
And this is the problem that I have with concepts of sin within the Judeo-Christian framework. God imparts certain innate qualities, but then gets pissed when you do the very thing you were programmed to do. That would make him directly complicit, no?

I do not believe that it is absolutely impossible that God could not have created beings with free will.

It seems your kind of concern says that free will of created beings and a Creator impossible to exist.

I don't think that is what is going on, that God has created robots who only can do as He commands, and freedom of choice is an illusion.

I do think that in eternity past God determined that all rebellion against His will would be accumulated under on grand repository - an tremendously beautiful and smart being who would become Satan. Satan forms that grand repository whose function under God's providence, was to contain any and all contrariness of all created beings who decide for their own reasons, that they want nothing to do with God.

How long the creation went on before this great repository came about, I do not know. I think this being who took the lead among all other beings to corrupt himself was providentially assigned to be the head over all other creatures who desire not to be under God's administration.

Man, created neutral and innocent, fell into that repository with the rebellious angels and demons who already occupied that reservoir of rejection of the Almighty.

In His foreknowledge God prepared a grand repository in which to sweep ALL beings who decide for their own reasons that their free decision chooses to reject their Creator.

The story of the rest of the Bible involves His great love and plan of salvation that we be saved from the Satanic rebellion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-08-2016 6:03 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2016 3:59 PM jaywill has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 832 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 382 of 1406 (782184)
04-19-2016 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by NoNukes
04-19-2016 3:59 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
You wrote this:

quote:
And this is the problem that I have with concepts of sin within the Judeo-Christian framework. God imparts certain innate qualities, but then gets pissed when you do the very thing you were programmed to do. That would make him directly complicit, no?

I wrote:

quote:

I do not believe that it is absolutely impossible that God could not have created beings with free will.

When you say read it several times and have trouble understanding what I wrote, I assume you are talking about the sentence above.

Perhaps writing it in a positive sense helps with clarity.

I believe that it is possible that the innate freedom of will put into man could conceivably be used by man to act contrary to God's pleasure. In this God is not complicit in that error.

The original sentence agrees that God our Creator can be somewhat compared to a programmer. For you said -

quote:
God imparts certain innate qualities, but then gets pissed when you do the very thing you were programmed to do.

I understood you to mean that God us angered because the PROGRAM (namely created man) operates according to the way the Programmer designed the PROGRAM (man) to work.

In other words, man can only work according to the innate design that his Creator has bestowed on him. So doesn't this make the Creator complicit if the creation simply works as it was designed to do ? And why should the Creator be angry?

I understand you to mean that it is impossible for the creation - man to not live by the innate characteristics designed into him by God.

My first sentence put forth my belief that this was not exactly the situation with God and his creature man. And for that reason I do it is possible that God's creation had the ability to act in a manner displeasing to his Designer or Maker.

It is possible that God created man with a freedom to do against the will of God.

The rest of my post was something about the history and explanation and function of the arch-wrong choosing being who enticed man to make the wrong choice against the will of God and man's own well being.

I like Psalm 33:15 which says God, the Creator fashioned man's heart and then observes man's deeds. This I take that though our soul is fashioned and designed by God, He has placed within an innate freedom. He observes what we do with this freedom.

"He who fashions the hearts of them all; He who discerns all their works. "

I hope this helped you to understand my thought better. This is brief. And this post should not be assumed to be an exhaustive synapses of everything the Bible reveals. I am aware that this post probably gives rise to other questions.

Does my sentence make more sense to you now?

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2016 3:59 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by NoNukes, posted 04-20-2016 11:30 AM jaywill has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 832 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 388 of 1406 (782207)
04-20-2016 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 385 by NoNukes
04-20-2016 11:30 AM


quote:
No, I did not write that. Nor did I write most of the other things your posts indicates that I wrote. The following is the sole exception

Excuse me for attributing a quote to you which was not yours - a mechanical oversight.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by NoNukes, posted 04-20-2016 11:30 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
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