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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 63 of 1406 (762777)
07-15-2015 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
07-15-2015 3:27 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
We don't have another option to simply ignore reality(as defined by the Creator) and simply do what thou wilt.

No one has ever considered that.

Being able to do impossible things is not a necessary condition for the existence of free will.

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 07-15-2015 3:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 10:18 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 1406 (762861)
07-16-2015 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
07-16-2015 10:18 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Jon writes:

No one has ever considered that.

Are you sure?

I suppose you might have, but that's just you.

Within a traditional understanding you clearly support the notion that free will exists.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 10:18 AM Phat has seen this message

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 1406 (763247)
07-23-2015 1:15 AM


Knowing and Freewill
Sometimes a person looks at a situation and imagines how it will play out.

Sometimes the person is wrong.

Sometimes they are right.

On the occasion that they are right, do we regard the actors as having no free will?

Do they have freewill only so long as absolutely no one could possibly look at the situation and imagine its outcome?


Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Phat, posted 07-23-2015 1:20 AM Jon has replied
 Message 177 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 1:44 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 1406 (763249)
07-23-2015 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Phat
07-23-2015 1:20 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
Huh?

My questions were about a hypothetical observer.

Your answer is all about you.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Phat, posted 07-23-2015 1:20 AM Phat has seen this message

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 1406 (763251)
07-23-2015 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by PaulK
07-23-2015 1:44 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
Do you think that guessing correctly is the same as knowing ?

No.

If someone wins the lottery does that mean that they knew in advance which numbers would come up ?

No.

"You will drop the ball".

If you drop the ball I am right. If you don't I am wrong.

It doesn't really matter how I arrived at my supposition, it is right or wrong based on how it accords with unfolding reality.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 1:44 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 2:10 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 1406 (763257)
07-23-2015 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by PaulK
07-23-2015 2:10 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
In the same way that it doesn't matter if you rigged the lottery or just got lucky ?

Rigging the lottery is not arriving at a supposition; it's creating a reality.

I don't think anyone in the debate is considering whether a problem of free will exists because God creates the future as He would like it to be. Because obviously such a universe would lack free will and there would be no debate.

It isn't about being right on occasion. It's about being infallibly right. And guesses aren't infallibly right.

The intensified version of being right on occasion is being right on all occasions, not being infallibly right.

One's guesses may be right on all occasions even if their guesses are just guesses, and having been 100% correct in all past guesses does not necessitate the next guess being accurate.

In other words, being a good guesser—even a really good guesser—does not make one incapable of error, even if one has thus far not erred.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 2:10 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 7:55 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 1406 (763263)
07-23-2015 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by PaulK
07-23-2015 7:55 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
Which is why guessing right every time - if it really is guessing - is not a problem for free will either.

Which was my point in Message 174.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 7:55 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 8:42 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 1406 (763270)
07-23-2015 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by PaulK
07-23-2015 8:42 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
Even the subthread title says "knowing" - and guessing is not knowing.

We can get there if you'd like.

Or you could continue to fling insults and waste thread space going in circles.

Take your pick.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 8:42 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 9:26 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 1406 (763284)
07-23-2015 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by jar
07-23-2015 9:37 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
I cannot imagine any reason that would make humans "more attractive" than germs if both were my creations.

Are you equally proud of all your accomplishments?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by jar, posted 07-23-2015 9:37 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by jar, posted 07-23-2015 11:56 AM Jon has taken no action

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 190 of 1406 (763287)
07-23-2015 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by PaulK
07-23-2015 9:26 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
Guessing and knowing are analogous in that both are mental states and nothing else.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 9:26 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 11:55 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 1406 (763332)
07-23-2015 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by PaulK
07-23-2015 11:55 AM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
Guessing and knowing (neither of which is purely a mental state) are different in ways directly relevant to the arguments of this thread.

Nonsense.

The knowledge folks had of the Sun going around the Earth didn't change the fact that the Earth goes around the Sun. Neither did anyone's guesses on the matter.

The effect of both knowledge and guesses on reality is nonexistent.

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 11:55 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 5:31 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 1406 (763344)
07-23-2015 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by PaulK
07-23-2015 5:31 PM


Re: Knowing and Freewill
The OP asked how foreknowledge and freewill could coexist.

Discussing the potential deficiencies of the common pop-philosophy understanding of knowledge is not an act of ignorance or error, but spot on the topic and (seeing as no one has offered a fully agreeable solution) probably not a waste of time.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2015 5:31 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by PaulK, posted 07-24-2015 1:02 AM Jon has taken no action

  
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