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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5122 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 47 of 1406 (372906)
12-30-2006 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kader
12-28-2006 1:13 PM


Time and eternity...

I don't understand how can we have free will if God is Omnipotent and Omniscient.
If someone shot you and you died a good christian.

First, God knew you would die. You also died for a reason. (God has a plan). So how can the guy that shot you had any choice but to shoot you ?

Basically did he had any free will ? If he did, how can you explain it ?

Kader, you are asking a very advanced and difficult theological question. If you really want to understand it you can, at least to my own satisfaction. Perhaps your standards are more stringent than my own.

The reason for the 'appearent contradiction' is in our assumption of these things happening not so much at the same time, but in the same time. The paradox is solved by the reality of the eternal realm. It is not disconnected from time, but I like to say that time is superimposed over it. In any case, eternity transcends our dimension of time from whatever point they are connected.

The resolution of this problem is found in the reality of eternity transcending time. If time is a pet concept of yours, then you will enjoy this solution emensely. If you have difficulty conceptualizing such things, then it will mean little.

Rather than try to explain it in my own words, I will defer you to a chapter entitiled 'Time and Beyond time' in the book 'Mere Christianity' by C.S. Lewis. It is most excellent.

Here's a link to that book just croll down to chapter three: http://lib.ru/LEWISCL/mere_engl.txt

Here's an excerpt form the end of the chapter, but you need to read the whole thing:

Another difficulty we get if we believe God to be in time is this.
Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I
are going to do tomorrow. But if He knows I am going to do so-and-so, how
can I be free to do otherwise? Well, here once again, the difficulty comes
from thinking that God is progressing along the Time-line like us: the only
difference being that He can see ahead and we cannot. Well, if that were
true, if God foresaw our acts, it would be very hard to understand how we
could be free not to do them. But suppose God is outside and above the
Time-line. In that case, what we call "tomorrow" is visible to Him in just
the same way as what we call "today." All the days are "Now" for Him. He
does not remember you doing things yesterday; He simply sees you doing them,
because, though you have lost yesterday. He has not. He does not "foresee"
you doing things tomorrow; He simply sees you doing them: because, though
tomorrow is not yet there for you, it is for Him. You never supposed that
your actions at this moment were any less free because God knows what you
are doing. Well, He knows your tomorrow's actions in just the same
way-because He is already in tomorrow and can simply watch you. In a sense,
He does not know your action till you have done it: but then the moment at
which you have done it is already "Now" for Him.
This idea has helped me a good deal. If it does not help you, leave it
alone. It is a "Christian idea" in the sense that great and wise Christians
have held it and there is nothing in it contrary to Christianity. But it is
not in the Bible or any of the creeds. You can be a perfectly good Christian
without accepting it, or indeed without thinking of the matter at all

I recommend the entire book even if you are not inclined to Christianity. It is merely astounding in terms of theological thinking, and quite simple and understandable as well.

:)


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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5122 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 48 of 1406 (372907)
12-30-2006 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Asgara
12-30-2006 12:33 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
If you want the solution to this problem, read message 47.


If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows — the only food that any possible universe ever can grow — then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Asgara, posted 12-30-2006 12:33 AM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Asgara, posted 12-30-2006 1:00 AM Rob has replied
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 12-30-2006 3:25 AM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5122 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 54 of 1406 (372978)
12-30-2006 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
12-30-2006 3:25 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Perhaps a good rule of thumb is to say that nobody on this board has any solutions for anyone else.

Ok Phat, but just remember that rules are themselves solutions. I don't pretend to have solutions, that would be arrogant indeed. God has solutions.

Edited by scottness, : badly missing 'n't'


This message is a reply to:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5122 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 55 of 1406 (372982)
12-30-2006 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Asgara
12-30-2006 1:00 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
First off you assume that people haven't read Lewis. Second, it is "merely" an apologetic. Something pulled out of a hat in an attempt to explain a conundrum.

Yes, I did assume that none of you had read Lewis, because no-one was giving the larger context of an eternal scope. If you had read it, you should not have acted as though the problem had to be answered within the narrow parameters of time.

As for pulling somethig out of a hat... that's what thinking is! But is the attire black or white?

Take it easy Asgara, these are tough things to handle, but logic will crush you if you try to stay too ridgid. We must be pliable so we can flow with it.

Nice to think of, but no basis except in your mind. If you can make things up to explain what you can't find an explanation for then just say so.

I can if it is logical, because I do not make up logic... it made me up! Only illogical statemnts are contrived.

We simply have to use the logical mind God gave us, if we are to come to any rational understanding. of course we cannot claim it as our own. We do not own reality.

Asgara, I like how you used your mind to make that up, so that you could challenge the validity of thinking altogether. That is illogical.

Why would you use your gift of choice to think that thinking is invalid as a means of understanding the issues?

'...cool intellect must prevail not only against cool intellect on the other side, but against the muddy heathen mysticisms that deny intellect altogether.' Lewis-

Edited by scottness, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-30-2006 4:44 PM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5122 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 56 of 1406 (372983)
12-30-2006 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
12-30-2006 3:25 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
I made an edit to reply 54 ...oops!

Edited by scottness, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 12-30-2006 3:25 AM Phat has taken no action

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5122 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 58 of 1406 (373065)
12-30-2006 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Archer Opteryx
12-30-2006 4:44 PM


Re: points of view
Archer writes:
Beware of the man of one book.
- St. Thomas Aquinas

Archer, you are a smart one! ;)

Abuse does not rule out use.
- St. Thomas Aquinas

:D


If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows — the only food that any possible universe ever can grow — then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-30-2006 4:44 PM Archer Opteryx has taken no action

  
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