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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
anastasia
Member (Idle past 4844 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 22 of 1406 (372805)
12-29-2006 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kader
12-28-2006 1:13 PM


Dear Kader,

Have you ever heard of theoligical determinism and compatibilism?

There are many possible positions one could take on the issue of free will.

The one used by Judeo-Christian religions is the above.

To explain, God is omniscient, period. We have free will, period. They do not cancel each other out.

It is not hard to grasp, really. There have been examples in court cases where a lawyer has argued determinism as a way to exonerate a prisoner. If all things are naturally GOING to happen, are they predetermined by NATURE? Or do we dictate to an extent what DOES happen? We don't need to even bring God into the picture to see that this type of reasoning will probably not get the guilty pardoned.

Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4844 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 27 of 1406 (372815)
12-29-2006 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by sidelined
12-29-2006 2:29 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
sidelined writes:

How about Omnipotent and powerless at the same time?

omnipotent and powerless?
God and Man?


This message is a reply to:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4844 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 29 of 1406 (372827)
12-29-2006 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Kader
12-29-2006 5:08 PM


Kader writes:

Yet in my example, how can the guy who shoots have free will ?
If its easy to grasp, it must be easy to explain ?

You will need to give me your example again. I did not get it the first time around.


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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4844 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 32 of 1406 (372845)
12-29-2006 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kader
12-28-2006 1:13 PM


Kader writes:

.First, God knew you would die. You also died for a reason. (God has a plan). So how can the guy that shot you had any choice but to shoot you ?

God knew you would die, yes. But I think it is a matter of opinion whether you died for a reason or not. I would say that God has some plans, but one of them is free will.

The shooter had a choice also, yes, unless someone else squeezed his fingers on the trigger. Just because God knew what the shooter would do before hand doesn't mean he had no choice.

Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.


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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4844 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 37 of 1406 (372860)
12-29-2006 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Asgara
12-29-2006 8:25 PM


Asgara writes:

Does this God know what these actions will be before you are born?

Is this God the sole creator of life?

That is how I imagine it, yes.


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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4844 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 43 of 1406 (372888)
12-29-2006 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Asgara
12-29-2006 10:46 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
You are probably not going to like this answer; at the least it will only provoke more questions. But...

Asgara writes:

Does he or does he not already have your life scripted out before he creates you? If he doesn't then he doesn't know what will happen.

I was going to ask you to clarify your previous post, but Phat ended up taking it in that direction anyway.

The problem is; there is no before and no after to God. It is all NOW. Make sense? Probably not. Still, it is an accepted theological concept. God's creating, and God's knowing, are simultaneous events. There is no need for a chronological sequence of events or cause = effect reasoning.


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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4844 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 45 of 1406 (372899)
12-30-2006 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Asgara
12-29-2006 11:43 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Asgara writes:

If it is all "now" to god then it still is an issue of creating knowing what is happening...now or future doesn't matter.

I could turn this into an endless conundrum, but why can't God in one second set in motion His creation, and know in that very second what the eventual outcome will be, without actually choosing the outcome?


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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4844 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 52 of 1406 (372974)
12-30-2006 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Asgara
12-30-2006 12:33 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Asgara writes:

If you are created with the eventual outcome known by your creator then how can you have free will. You will do what you are scripted to do, what is already known you will do.

That 'eventual outcome known by your Creator' is a paraphrase of omniscience, or theological determinism.
The answer is not getting any more or less complex in lieu of any paraphrasing; it is still a matter of our having free-will 'in time' and an omniscient God outside of time.


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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4844 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 53 of 1406 (372977)
12-30-2006 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Asgara
12-30-2006 1:00 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Asgara writes:

First off you assume that people haven't read Lewis. Second, it is "merely" an apologetic. Something pulled out of a hat in an attempt to explain a conundrum.

This is as I said before only one 'solution'. There is also nondeterminism in which there is no omniscient being or non-compatibilism in which we have no free will because of an omniscient being. There are many variations, some of which have nothing to do with God, but with the laws of nature.

As per the OP, which assumes an omniscient being, and asks HOW we can have free will, this is a 'solution' which of course did not originate with Lewis, although he explains it well.

ABE; I am calling this 'a' solution, but as far as I know there is no other theological concept...of course non-testable and all that so not a true 'solution'...which better explains the conundrum.

Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.


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