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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 210 of 1406 (763503)
07-25-2015 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Faith
07-25-2015 8:58 AM


Nicely done, Faith. A short, clear and understandable explanation of your view.

It's all BS, of course, but you said it so well and I appreciate the skill.

Well put, Lady.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 07-25-2015 8:58 AM Faith has replied

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 Message 211 by Faith, posted 07-26-2015 7:44 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 351 of 1406 (773217)
11-26-2015 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by Phat
11-26-2015 5:08 PM


Re: My Friend Flicka
For some of us, there is a person in whom we believe and in whom we claim to know.

It's called indoctrination. If it is done early enough and often enough it becomes so ingrained in the mind that reality can no longer have any effect.


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 439 of 1406 (784202)
05-14-2016 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 437 by kbertsche
05-13-2016 10:53 PM


Re: Definition of free will
So, if I understand the concept you hold, you’re saying your god does not force or direct your decisions but knows what decisions you will make. He has given us unguided free will already knowing where that path of our free will is going to lead. That means that millennia ago your god knew that the decisions that would be made by all my ancestors would eventually lead to my conception and that the decisions I make would lead him to condemn me to hell for all eternity; that he allowed this course of events, without his intervention or direction, to unfold willingly and knowingly. The outcome is already known, my torture in the lake of fire, though not directed by him, was already known to him at the creation of the world.

Since your god made the world to work this way how does this differ from a directed, predetermined, world absent of free will?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by kbertsche, posted 05-13-2016 10:53 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by kbertsche, posted 05-14-2016 12:07 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 443 of 1406 (784218)
05-14-2016 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by kbertsche
05-14-2016 12:07 PM


Re: Definition of free will
First, I was not presenting "my view". I was putting forth a "thought experiment" that I hoped anyone could consider:

My bad. Thought experiment is being considered.

In what I suggested, we would have free will and would be able to affect the course of events.

At the level of us humans that sounds great. But, at the level of an omniscient deity the outcome is already known. Regardless of the fact that said deity does not guide our decisions, it knows, I assume with perfect certainty, what decisions we will make, has known from the beginning what decisions we would make and what all the outcomes will be. So, from the level of the omniscient deity everything is known and set.

I cannot separate the fact that in the larger universal sense all is known and set while we humans practice free will?

In a directed, predetermined world with no free will, we would be automatons, with no input or choice in what happens.

In your thought experiment then, the exercise of our free will in determining the course of events as we see it, will not, cannot, change the results this omniscient deity already knows to exist.

Doesn't that make our free will an illusion? Are we not actually automatons without any ability to change the larger outcome an omniscient sees.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 687 of 1406 (846796)
01-11-2019 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 686 by Phat
01-11-2019 4:17 PM


Re: Flickering Christians?
I conclude that you simply accepted the evidence you found. I have found much of that same evidence and have rejected it.

The decision is a choice that should not be backed by evidence pro or con.

We're in deep doo-doo because so many people make their choices based on emotional gut feel instead of on knowledge.

The species is doomed.


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 689 of 1406 (846800)
01-11-2019 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 688 by Phat
01-11-2019 4:57 PM


Re: Flickering Christians?
In summation, there is no solid conclusion as to the question of whether or not the books of the Bible are reliable as evidence or not.

Just from the bible, then, you cannot rightfully make a decision either way.

Just from the bible, with all the questions of authorship, veracity, and reliability, as you say, there is no basis upon which to make a god-done-it decision.

But, with the other evidence we have from all the sciences which show that a god is not necessary to accomplish the reality we see in this universe we are forced into a position of rightfully discounting, almost to zero, the various god-done-it philosophies. With all the holy books being under such questionable veracity there appears to be no evidence to counter this conclusion.

If some must insist and faith is the only reason to conclude god then we must also conclude tooth fairy, leprechauns and Her Most Divineliness The Invisible Pink Unicorn (May She Always Have A Full Bag Of Feed) as well and that's just plain crazy.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 692 of 1406 (846819)
01-12-2019 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 690 by Faith
01-11-2019 6:12 PM


Re: Flickering Christians?
I don't know why you guys are so stupid about these things or think we are, or that all of us are.

No, M'love, it is not that we think you're stupid. We know that you are ... lacking in certain critical thinking skills.

Your bible is a kluge of political brinkmanship and opportunism with all the veracity of the book of mormon.


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 Message 690 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 6:12 PM Faith has replied

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 699 of 1406 (846851)
01-12-2019 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 697 by Faith
01-12-2019 1:57 PM


Re: Flickering Christians?
ringo addressed the one quote quite well already.

I'm sure you're capable of speaking as fully hatefully as you feel

I already do. This is me, at the moment. If things change, you'll know.

If the "flirty language" is too disturbing for you I will try to control myself.


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 702 of 1406 (846881)
01-13-2019 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 701 by Phat
01-13-2019 4:22 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Dont you see that you want the same position and perspective that the omniscient Deity has?

What? Sit on my throne and have the infinity of all of spacetime before me at a glance? There would be nothing to do except watch this, by now, dreadfully boring movie that I'd already seen an infinite number of times playing out yet again.

If I decided I wanted to intervene in even the slightest way I couldn't since all was already done whether I'd intervened or not. I would be powerless ... and bored.

No wonder all the gods vanished into oblivion. Under such a scenario not even the gods have free will.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 703 by Phat, posted 01-13-2019 3:41 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 712 by Phat, posted 02-11-2019 11:47 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 705 of 1406 (846953)
01-13-2019 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 703 by Phat
01-13-2019 3:41 PM


Re: Definition of free will
Do you see anyone as powerless to change their mind? Also, hypothetically, why would God be limited? You claim that all would be done. Yet it is God who would have willed it so.

We mere mortals, non-omniscient and all, can (apparently) change our minds whenever we want. We are not limited by perfect knowledge of all events, past, present, future.

If you’re a perfect omniscient god you have already made all the decisions and have already set the entire play from infinite past to infinite future. And if you do want to change your mind … that’s a decision you already knew you would make and it is already a part of the infinite and perfect timeline already in place. You can’t, effectively, change your mind about anything. From the moment you set the universe in motion there is nothing left to do, all timelines known, nothing to change from the initial perfect plan. Might as well just dissolve into oblivion.

So, no, I would not want the same position and perspective that an omniscient Deity is said to have. It would be a useless existence.

Either by accepting communion with those who chose it or by establishing another community for those who rejected the first offer. Would you argue that there should only be one community?

I argue there IS only one community … the community of man. No gods need apply.

But, hypothetically, it would make no difference. The decision would already have been made and there is nothing anyone could do about it … even god.

The only thing nobody knows or can know is their final destination.

Oh, but we already do know. We are each doomed to nonexistence. We will just cease to exist for all of the infinity left to eternity. Oblivion, the same place we came from. Or so our best evidence indicates.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 716 of 1406 (848593)
02-11-2019 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 712 by Phat
02-11-2019 11:47 AM


Re: Definition of free will
It could be that the decisions that we make in time are incorporated by the Deity into the script at the present moment that they are actualized.

It's your experiment so you can set it up anyway you like. But, the question is, is the deity you experiment with here omniscient or not? If it is then I see no room for our having free will. The deity already knows what happens at every turn in every scene, has known from the start of eternity and, in fact, sees the whole story set in stone at the instance of creation.

Any changes of mind god may have thunk up have already been thunk up in its perfect omniscience and either added to the play or not all before the creation. For an omniscient being there would be no such thing as second guessing. For an omniscient being all eternity is set within its mind from the start. All of it. Forever.

Just the deity having the knowledge of what will transpire before the event for every event for all eternity is enough to vacate any notion of free will in humans, and I submit, in god itself.

If, however, your contention is that we mere mortals have some kind of say in the script from this deity's point of view then that would presuppose that this god doesn't possess omniscience. Which is fine.

Besides, I always had the impression that this whole free will thing was pretty much limited in the religious community to whether we, by our own thoughts, willingly chose to believe or not. Has nothing to do with our freedom of action in what we will have for dinner tonight.

And here omniscience in your deity is especially heinous. So the story of an omniscient god goes, it has, from creation, already determined that I will not be counted among the believers and I will suffer an eternity of physical pain for not making a decision I was never destined to make on my own anyway. Once the play starts I couldn't decide otherwise no matter how much free will I'm supposed to have.

Even the more robust views of free will are more illusion than reality, imho. I'm partial to the idea that we humans don't have much in the way of free will in much of anything since this universe already constrains our decision space to a rather small subset of probabilities.

This is ludicrous demon thinking.

Right, Of course it is. Demons.

You would thus argue that its irrelevant as a result and that we are destined to simply procreate and die forever.

Yup.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 757 of 1406 (848877)
02-17-2019 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 756 by Phat
02-17-2019 4:21 PM


Re: Matts 2 cents
You likely will agree with him

Well, I have a major problem with asking the Second Baptist Church of Memphis about what's wrong with any other denomination since IIRC, they couldn't tell you since they know nothing about any other denomination. They don't want their pure spirits infested by the poisonous demons of false satan-inspired religions so they avoid all study, recognition, even mentioning of any other sect.

Other than that, yeah, I pretty much agree.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 760 of 1406 (848884)
02-17-2019 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 759 by candle2
02-17-2019 5:56 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
The real problem, however, is whenever a hateful thing is done to someone 99.9 percent of the times it comes from a religious conservative.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 763 by candle2, posted 02-18-2019 8:07 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 764 of 1406 (848902)
02-18-2019 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 763 by candle2
02-18-2019 8:07 AM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Atheists have faith that God doesn't exist.

You don't talk to many atheists do you.

You have no idea what atheists think. Nothing to do with faith.

Faith in fantasy is your venue, not ours.

I am constantly amused at how christians, supposedly charged with the welfare and keeping of their fellow humans, scream so selfishly when we as a society try to do just that.

Apparently atheists are more christian than your church.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 773 by candle2, posted 02-18-2019 2:44 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 777 of 1406 (848935)
02-18-2019 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 773 by candle2
02-18-2019 2:44 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
An atheist believes there is no Goo. To believe in something that cannot be proved requires faith.
It requires more faith to be an atheist than it does to be a Christian.

Realize this is the same twisted religious logic that keeps getting you lot such poor reception by thinking people.

An atheist does not disbelieve in a Goo (as you so eloquently put it). We hold the concept with zero confidence pending evidence.

There is a difference.

I know you want to believe this about atheists because you think it puts the atheist on an equal "belief" footing with your fantasy. Since your belief in what atheists believe is also fantasy your premise falls along with your equal footing.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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