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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 890 of 1444 (879779)
07-22-2020 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 889 by ringo
07-22-2020 12:52 PM


Re: Its Relational...Not About Being Good
ringo writes:
God can not be "simply aware" of evil if He is the creator of all things seen and unseen.
Why not? God created the possibility of evil expressiveness. The possibility became actualized through free choice---again allowed by God. Thus God is aware of an evil entity that is walking, talking, perhaps flying actualized evil. God is aware of what He allowed to manifest. God Himself is not manifesting the evil inclinations.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 889 by ringo, posted 07-22-2020 12:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 894 by ringo, posted 07-23-2020 9:41 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 895 of 1444 (879827)
07-23-2020 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 894 by ringo
07-23-2020 9:41 AM


Re: Its Relational...Not About Being Good
ringo writes:
God CREATED evil, by your description, not mine.
No argument there. I always frame it as that God created the possibility of evil, actualized by 1/3 of the angelic hosts and later presented to humans as an alternative to obedience.
ringo writes:
So He just stands around watching evil happen, without lifting a finger to stop it. That is evil.
And you think "free will" is an excuse for that? We don't let our children do bad things just because we don't dare to violate their "free will". Why would God do it?
Because the initial choice was given to fully mature spirit beings known as angels. Angels were not Gods "children".
Granted God allowed humans...essentially His "children" to be given the option. So lets discuss whether or not that was evil...to offer the option.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 894 by ringo, posted 07-23-2020 9:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 896 by ringo, posted 07-23-2020 12:46 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 897 of 1444 (879832)
07-23-2020 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 892 by Sarah Bellum
07-22-2020 1:15 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Sarah Bellum writes:
But those who postulate an all-knowing, all-powerful deity that created our universe have set us up as a fully written story from the beginning. If I plant a tree, I don't know for certain what will happen, how tall it will grow, what day it will drop its fruit, etc. But if I write a story about a tree, I have full control and there is no possibility of surprise. If god is all-knowing and all-powerful then our universe is like the second tree. Not really a tree at all, is it?
As Tangle would say...."as long as we are making shit up"...
And in that sense we are all either rewriting the book, describing what we get from the books, or arguing over the meaning of what was written...both in the book and in cultural dogma springing from the books.
I know that I will be accused of being just another low down, scheming apologist, but I really dont care. We all are entitled to believe whatever we want. So...to address your topic:
...those who postulate an all-knowing, all-powerful deity that created our universe have set us up as a fully written story from the beginning.
This is the first point of contention. Was(or were ) the stories written as "the living Word" from the very beginning? In some ways, I say yes. I believe that Jesus created the angels.I believe that He gave them free will and that 1/3 of them took Him up on it and fought to establish their own "club". I don't believe, however, that the KJV OT was simply handed to humans as a fully written account. I believe that early goat herders and questioning humans gazing at the stars were given an impression...an abstract impression...as to the fact that there were gods and later that there was essentially One Creator. They wrote the stories as they felt the stories to be best described. They were obviously inspired through some source, and I dont believe this source to be solely their own imaginations.
If I plant a tree, I don't know for certain what will happen, how tall it will grow, what day it will drop its fruit, etc. But if I write a story about a tree, I have full control and there is no possibility of surprise.
Are you metaphorically referring to the two tress in the Garden? If so, many question why God would allow a tree that He admonished A&E not to eat of. To me, that tree symbolized the same offer that God (or Jesus) had given the angelic hosts.
Its like a parent talking to their children saying "don't smoke cigarettes like Uncle Bob does." ringo may argue that even allowing Uncle Bob in the house near the kids is a bad move, but others would argue that exposing the children slowly to the real world is better than home schooled isolation. At any rate, being God, God knew the outcomes. That is why I argue that Jesus is really Plan A even though He is said to be the 2nd Adam.
If god is all-knowing and all-powerful then our universe is like the second tree. Not really a tree at all, is it?
Nope.
John 15:5-8 writes:
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Essentially, the knowledge of good & evil was going to become part of the lesson one way or another.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 892 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-22-2020 1:15 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 899 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-23-2020 1:39 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 898 of 1444 (879835)
07-23-2020 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 896 by ringo
07-23-2020 12:46 PM


As Long As We Are Making It Up...
ringo writes:
1. Aren't the Sons of God in Genesis 6:2 usually considered to be angels?
I believe so. Lets investigate this more thoroughly, as I see your point.
concerning the origin of the word "Sons"...
Strongs writes:
OT:1121
ben (bane); from OT:1129; a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense (of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition, etc., [like OT:1, OT:251, etc.]):
Thus the angels were not sons in the human sense...is what I get out of it. They were more along the line of stewards or subjects. Only three basically had names that we were given...those being the three arch angels. Michael, Gabrial, and Lucifer.
2. What has that got to do with humans?
According to popular mythos, Lucifer became jealous of the humans because they were like the new puppy in the "family" and God loved them and doted on them more than on Lucifer (or any other Angel, basically)
I mean, feel free to attack the credentials of me or any apologist. Stories can be and are interpreted. I happen to think that this interpretation is plausible. Its also symbolic. 2/3 of angels remain with God. 2/3 of Arch Angels remain loyal to God. 1/3 of the sum total of angels rebel. 1 out of the 3 Arch Angels rebelled. Which allowed for free will as well as the actualization of evil.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 896 by ringo, posted 07-23-2020 12:46 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 904 by ringo, posted 07-24-2020 9:12 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 900 of 1444 (879862)
07-23-2020 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 899 by Sarah Bellum
07-23-2020 1:39 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Sarah Bellum writes:
The problem for believers in a deity is that if that deity is all-knowing and all-powerful then there cannot be "choice".
Not sure I follow.
How did I become a believer?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 899 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-23-2020 1:39 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 901 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-23-2020 7:25 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 902 of 1444 (879866)
07-23-2020 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 901 by Sarah Bellum
07-23-2020 7:25 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
We are in a Faith & Belief Forum so it shouldn't matter. Perhaps we will never truly know who does and does not believe that God exists, lives through Jesus Christ, and is interactive through prayer.
jar might claim that a believer by definition believes in the basic message and attempts to do what the basic message says to do. In his scenario, a believer is one who follows Jesus command to feed(clothe) and encourage the " other humans....including the non-believers or other religiously minded.
So to start with, what do you (Sarah Bellum) believe that the definition of a "believer" is? Personally, I see a necessary part of the definition involving trusting the Holy Spirit...which is essentially trusting (and accepting) Jesus Christ. My critics would disagree, telling me it matters not what a person believes but onoy what they do.
For them, a good secular humanist atheist could be acceptable within the definitions of what a believer is.
So I encourage us to more fully express what specifically we believe in....doing so will get us closer to a consensus.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 901 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-23-2020 7:25 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 903 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-23-2020 7:48 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 905 of 1444 (879900)
07-24-2020 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by jar
01-04-2016 6:52 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodigies?
ringo writes:
The fictional character "Satan" represents our own free will. What "Satan" wants IS what we want. Every time we're tempted to do something that we "shouldn't", we're wanting to be independent of God.
Which brings up what used to be an obvious question:
Is wanting independence from God a good thing or a bad thing? Before the prodigal son returned home to his Dad, did he change his mind and/or behavior?
jar writes:
...And lying, cheating and stealing are human caused. Jesus or God will not stop them, never has and never will. The same is true of greed. Only humans can stop lying, cheating, stealing or greed.
So....in light of what ringo hypothesized, is lying,cheating,greed and stealing a result of wanting to be independent from God?
jar writes:
The answer really is simple.
Don't lie.
Don't cheat.
Don't steal.
Take personal responsibility for all you do.
Do you believe that humans by nature want to be independent from God?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by jar, posted 01-04-2016 6:52 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 906 by ringo, posted 07-25-2020 12:21 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 908 of 1444 (879925)
07-25-2020 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 907 by Tangle
07-25-2020 12:35 PM


Soul Food
Tangle writes:
I just heard someone explaining that god puts souls into people at birth.
I've never heard that and likely dont really believe it.
Thinking of the hypothetical s, however....the real question is Gods foreknowledge robbing us of freedom of choice. After all, if he pre-programs us with a custom made soul, what choice do we really have in this matrix known as life?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 907 by Tangle, posted 07-25-2020 12:35 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 909 of 1444 (879926)
07-25-2020 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 906 by ringo
07-25-2020 12:21 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodigies?
The story isn't about the son's behavior. It's about the father's behavior.
This gets back to my protest at thinking of a concept of Heaven and a loving Father allowing any yahoo in the door even if they stubbornly (and disrespectfully) waltzed in smoking a cigarette or shaking off a hangover (which they chose to become trapped in the addiction) or whatnot. Thus, it is about both the Father and the prodigal sons mental states. Should a Father accept His murderous son home again if the son never showed repentance for his rebellious choices?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 906 by ringo, posted 07-25-2020 12:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 910 by ringo, posted 07-26-2020 9:58 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 911 of 1444 (879944)
07-26-2020 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 910 by ringo
07-26-2020 9:58 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodigies?
ringo writes:
What else can you possibly get from the stories?
Namely that the son also had a change of heart. This is why I tell you that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will be accepted into Heaven. You gotta ditch the cigarette!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 910 by ringo, posted 07-26-2020 9:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 912 by ringo, posted 07-26-2020 10:08 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 913 of 1444 (879955)
07-26-2020 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 912 by ringo
07-26-2020 10:08 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodigies?
Concerning being accepted into Heaven As Is:
ringo writes:
Clearly not. Neither the sheep nor the coin changed their behavior.
My but you are a stubborn one! You rejecteed the authority of religion, which I can see as a plausible option. You have an understanding of God as a God Who rejoices in the return home of a lost coin,(some objecct of value) lost sheep(who blindly exists without self awareness or need of repentence) and a Prodigal Son, taken from the story in Luke. Lets examine your claim that the Father would accept the son even with wild women on his arm and cigarettes in his mouth:
Perhaps the Father would. My point is that in this family, relationship was biological, spiritual, and unconditional. The Father and the son were brought back together into communion through an initiation by the son\ to return home. Without that initiation, the son would have remained lost.
The son knows better than to bring home a concubine. (Look Father what I have purchased with my inheritance) If he once smoked, he has enough respect for his Father that he wo0uldnt have a cigarette. He knows that the decision to accept him is entirely the Fathers choice.
My argument with you is the idea that anyone can simply waltz back home, perhaps even Satan included, and be accepted into Heaven with no strings attached. I am arguing that it isn't that easy to take Dad for granted. If you wanted to bring your spare change accepting, homeless drinking buddies with you to meet Dad, you might try and show respect for Dad first.
What you are telling me is that Dad (God) would accept any lost sheep back home with no strings attached. I agree on the behalf of the love of the Father, but I disagree that anyone should return home carrying the weight of the sins they found in the world. For the Prodigal, what separated him from Dad was his own rebellious entitled nature. He dropped that before daring to return.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 912 by ringo, posted 07-26-2020 10:08 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 914 by ringo, posted 07-26-2020 3:27 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 919 of 1444 (880036)
07-28-2020 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 918 by PaulK
07-28-2020 8:48 AM


What GOD Knows and What Humans Speculate
PaulK writes:
If this all-knowing being intervenes in this universe when does it know the situation with regard to it’s decision, when does it know what that decision will be and when does it know the consequences. It can’t be all-knowing even with regard to this universe until it knows all three - for every intervention it will ever make in this universe.
You know my basic belief-view. God created angelic beings first. There were, as far as we know, 3 arch-angels. These beings were given free will. God knew that there was being given a possibility of autonomy from Him. Sure enough, one out of three chose autonomy and took roughly a third of the regular angelic beings with him. This is when Monism became Dualism. God, in the Beginning, was a Trinitarian reality and yet a monastic (monotheistic) reality all along, but humans became aware of the personification(through Jesus) which some would label anthropomorphic seeing as how they would believe that humans imagined/created God anyway. Jesus actually created the angels(through Him all things were created) and thus created a free willed Lucifer who chose to rebel. Thus, Jesus was essentially before Adam, so when He is said to be the second Adam it is when He comes from Heaven to Earth. I know Tangle is simply shaking his head marveling at the crazy religious stuff that people make up, but through Jesus, God becomes real. Humans actually are given the possibility of Holy Communion with the Creator of all seen and unseen. As for all of the other religions, you can do with them what you choose. Choice--(through Dualism, which was the result of free will) is available for every human.
Now...some will argue that God could care less what we choose and loves us unconditionally anyway...and I wont challenge their belief. They have a right to it. The book does say that the third archangel will suffer a definite fate. Ostensibly so too will the 1/3 of the angels who chose that autonomous reality.
So lets get back to your question:
when does it know the situation with regard to it’s decision, when does it know what that decision will be and when does it know the consequences. It can’t be all-knowing even with regard to this universe until it knows all three...
  • When does God know the situation(past,present and future) in regards to its decision(to allow free will)? I say that God knew that Angels would be created and at some point knew that He would give them free will. Seeing how God Is past+present+future, "some point" means all points.
  • When does God *know* what that decision will be? Again, God knows all points in time. At least in regards to the angelic realm. We can discuss ultimate foreknowledge again, if anybody wants.
  • When does God *know* the consequences? At the point that we make them.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 918 by PaulK, posted 07-28-2020 8:48 AM PaulK has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 920 by Tangle, posted 07-28-2020 10:05 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 922 by ringo, posted 07-28-2020 12:22 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 921 of 1444 (880039)
    07-28-2020 10:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 917 by Stile
    07-28-2020 8:18 AM


    Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
    Stile writes:
    Most people when they say God is "all knowing" are talking about God knowing everything about this universe. Past, present, and future.
    And, a God that didn't know such things before the universe existed, but does know all such things after the universe existed - is still "all-knowing" as far as that universe is concerned.
    Keep in mind the timelines.
    God is eternal...no timeline.
    The universe may or may not be eternal. Hawking may argue differently than Augustine.
    Humans most definitely have a timeline.
    So lets rephrase your statement.
    Stiles statement rephrased writes:
    And, a God that didn't know humans before the humans existed, but does know all people after they are born - is still "all-knowing" as far as that group of humans is concerned.
    Look at Revelation.
    Rev 1:1 writes:
    The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
    Both Jesus and God are aware of all points in time...being eternal. In fract, hypothetically they are aware of any other points outside of time, should such points exist. Once Jesus becomes human, (born) He is subject to time. Thus God gives Jesus a revelation *in time*.
    Rev 1:4-5 writes:
    Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
    Thus God was, is, and is to come. Eternal. At every point in time(and out of time as well, hypothetically)
    Rev 1:8-11 writes:
    8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
    9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."
    Thus John reveals the Christian Trinitarian concept of GOD Eternal and Jesus Christ interacting with humanity.
    Rev 1:17-18 writes:
    17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
    This is God the Son talking. God the Father never died. And technically, since Jesus has not yet returned bodily, the One who is speaking through John, through Revelation TO whosoever has an ear is the Holy Spirit.
    One more thing I got from Revelation:
    Rev 17:7-8 writes:
    7 Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
    Once Was(not always was) Now is Not(because there is One Spirit and One God) and yet will come. (Antichrist? One can see it how they choose. The Bible is written for whosoever. Its not for everyone.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 917 by Stile, posted 07-28-2020 8:18 AM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 928 by Stile, posted 07-29-2020 10:20 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 923 of 1444 (880053)
    07-28-2020 1:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 922 by ringo
    07-28-2020 12:22 PM


    Re: What GOD Knows and What Humans Speculate
    Nonsense. If God was all-knowing yet you had not yet made a decision in time, how could God foreknow what your decision would be? Granted God the Father is not bound by time, but God the Son is the first and the last. You are included somewhere in that spectrum.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 922 by ringo, posted 07-28-2020 12:22 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 924 by ringo, posted 07-28-2020 5:09 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 925 of 1444 (880069)
    07-28-2020 11:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 924 by ringo
    07-28-2020 5:09 PM


    Re: What GOD Knows and What Humans Speculate
    But if He DOES know what you will decide you are little more than a robot. I believe that God chose to be an observer. It is enough that He knew that you would have a choice.
    Another way that I look at it is this: The only way that God can be experienced somewhat objectively by humans is through other humans. If my theory is correct that there are spirits, "vibes" or impressions/perceptions that encompass the human definition of "spirituality" then the only objective way that this could be confirmed is through other humans. Even jar would likely ask me how did I know it was God if i heard a voice speak to me some day. As would you. And to be fair, you likely will bring up the idea that humans can be deceived, "tricked" or bamboozled en mass.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 924 by ringo, posted 07-28-2020 5:09 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 932 by ringo, posted 07-29-2020 12:58 PM Phat has not replied

      
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