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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1169 of 1444 (881271)
08-21-2020 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1163 by jar
08-20-2020 4:11 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
jar writes:
And you don't see how utterly silly that statement is.
There is absolutely NOTHING you could do for a real god.
OK, I see your point. But the first part of the greatest commandment surely has meaning. Loving God means trusting God for who He is. Even above the logic, reason, and reality of the critically thinking Masters. God is more than simply a character in the book. God created the earth that grew the trees that made the very paper the book was written on. Perhaps He did not have an active role in creating the earth directly, but you can be certain that the universe did not create itself from "nothing".
Denying that reality---Cosmological Creation, makes YOUR God out to be utterly a worthless fantasy within the human brain.
Add By Edit:
jar writes:
my Belief Statement was like a travelog. It was a selection of a few faded snapshots out of a big album. Far more pictures were left in the book then were dragged out for the 'Belief Statement'.
Faith made a claim that the story was brainwashing. I find that to be an absolutely amazing claim coming from someone who reads a Bible laced with commentaries. Such books don't even offer the possiblity of the person thinking about what is actually written but instead go straight to telling the reader what they must think.
The reality is that I actually did spend a week pretty much agonizing over the question at that time ,and it is one that I constantly question even to this day. It was a direct challenge to what I thought I believed (which was in the statement just before what she did quote), that I was saved because I believed in Jesus. It would be so easy for folk to simply accept the warlord as Master and Savior, to profess or even truly believe. But what does that say about GOD?
Another claim that seems to be made pretty regularly is that my Belief System is some soft and fluffy theology. I don't think so. I believe we are all responsible for our own acts. I cannot fall back on the excuse that I have a sinful nature because of some Fall and so I can't help it when I screw up. If I screw up it is because I made bad choices, not because of my Nature.
I believe each of us will be judged, judged individually and completely, based on how we behave while here on earth.
Another claim that seems to be part of the comments so far is that my theology is not that of the Bible. I think that is both true and false. First, I am not searching for the God of the Bible but for GOD. Second, the Bible, like Aesop's Fables (which also took form around the same time), is an anthology of anthologies, a collection of stories meant to convey the point of view of various peoples about how they saw God, themselves, their relationship with God and His with them, their relationships with their families and clan and with other clans and with all the other critters in the world.
The God of the Bible is not GOD. Instead, like another old photo album, in the Bible we see snapshots of how the peoples saw their world and universe at a given moment. God may even be in some of the pictures, fuzzy, out of focus and unidentified in the crowd like a Biblical "Where's Waldo".
As to the existance continuation thread, I am thrilled and shocked. Shocked because frankly I did not expect anyone to even read the original. Thrilled because I believe comment and discussions such as this thread so far where the issue of whether or not my learning experience is brainwashing is a powerful tool in its own as we all try to develop and hone critical thinking skills.
One area of disappointment though is in the selective nature of the quotemining part so far. Further on in my Belief Statement (and I apologize for the length of the sucker, honestly I did cut out much in an attempt to keep it readable), I continue the discussion about questioning beliefs. Why was that excluded Faith? Why was that not also at least referred to?
I honestly believe that there are two types of folk, those that look for Answers to questions and those who look for answers to Question. I believe this is an important distinction.
OK here is an answer to question:
Is Jesus God? Is GOD the Father of Jesus? Who was Jesus? Is Jesus eternally alive and in Heaven with GOD? Is the distinction of Jesus over other humans important, or do you believe that we all will be raised from the dead? And if so, why? Why must this God of yours save everybody without any effort on their part?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1163 by jar, posted 08-20-2020 4:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1171 by jar, posted 08-21-2020 7:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1179 of 1444 (881301)
08-21-2020 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1170 by jar
08-21-2020 7:41 AM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
jar writes:
So are you now saying that the god you market is NOT omnicient?
First of all, what difference does it make? We are charged to choose wisely and to live and act wisely. My argument is that The road is narrow and not everyone finds it or lives it. You simply cannot tell God what He has to do in order to avoid being evil. Our job is to thank God for everything good that we receive, ask Him for clarity and grace in moments of hardship or pain, allow Him to change our hearts and perspective to more closely allign with what we would believe to be His perspectives, and quit worry about good Gods and evil gods. It is my belief that satan exists as well as rebellious independent (from God) strongholds, but I never give them any power for I believe that I become the decisions that I make. I fail from time to time, but I believe that this is meant to heppen. Perhaps I see your point in that if I believed in ultimate foreknowledge and marketed such a concept, that would be evil. The only reason that people would market such a concept is to market a God of no limitations. And hypothetically such a God actually could be evil should such a God so want to be evil. Ringo may argue that a God favoring Capitalism and selfishness over spare change altruism may well be evil, and I wont go there...he likely is right. We are charged to do unto the least of these as we would do to ourselves, so I dont really have much of an argument. Our discussion should focus on a God we all collectively market. There should be no argument.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1170 by jar, posted 08-21-2020 7:41 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1181 by jar, posted 08-21-2020 9:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1180 of 1444 (881302)
08-21-2020 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1177 by Juvenissun
08-21-2020 8:17 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Juvenissun, you have to understand ringos basic argument. Like jar, he believes that Christianity, God, Jesus, and the characters in the Bible were invented by humans. To him, if God actually exists, He seems not to be the responsible God who fixes eevery hurt, takes away every tear, and blesses us with bounty unimaginable. Ringo will argue that only *we* can comfort each other. And he cynically thinks that the folks that give Christianity a bad name are Christians themselves. He does not label himself an atheist or a believer, but only a doer.
His political views are quite left wing. He believes that humanity needs to help each other and quit stashing stuff back for themselves and their heirs. He believes that the down and out guy on the corner should be treated as one would treat their own brother. He never seems phased when I complain that his philosophy would empty my closet of anything I held back for myself. He is basically a socialist, though he supports it Biblically.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1177 by Juvenissun, posted 08-21-2020 8:17 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1184 by Juvenissun, posted 08-22-2020 6:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1188 by ringo, posted 08-22-2020 12:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1183 of 1444 (881318)
08-22-2020 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1182 by jar
08-21-2020 9:07 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
This is our point of contention. What raises my hackles is that the GOD you market is unknowable while we are still living, and thus you have thrown away the God that Christians usually market and your focus is on marketing good works as a charge for Christians...telling us essentially that the Greatest Commandment sums it all up in Part II. Which only bothers me because one could be a secular humanist and get the job done just as well, and hence you claim to be a Christian yet are an advocate for dismantling the club. And if the God you market never foreknowing damns anyone, all people will be saved who bother to answer the charge. You have upended my aura of exclusivity and special-ness that my Born Again experience gave me.
I might point out the differences in thinking, however. ICANT is a good example.
He believes that the Bible is divine revelation. He thus believes that it adequately explains anything and everything philosophically, realistically and absolutely.
I come close to agreeing, yet am fine with the scientific proof that there was no global flood and that the flood was not literal.
I get a bit more feisty when one attempts to prove to me that the Jesus story was made up. And I do not believe that God is unknowable but is knowable through Jesus Christ, whom I believe once lived, existed eternally with GOD before that, exists now as a living presence through the Holy Spirit, and always will exist. This is why God is knowable. Your insistence that God can never be known while we are alive and that He can safely be thrown away is a world view that critical thinking gave you.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1182 by jar, posted 08-21-2020 9:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1186 by jar, posted 08-22-2020 7:32 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1189 by ringo, posted 08-22-2020 12:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1191 of 1444 (881345)
08-22-2020 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1186 by jar
08-22-2020 7:32 AM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
The God you and the Apologists market foreknowing CREATES people who will be damned regardless of what they do.
What other kind of Deity do you want to market? One who does not know what jar will decide until jar decides it?
Did God know which plant was wheat and which was tares?
Did God know which were sheep and which were goats? If not how could God separate them?
What type of God do you imagine? One Who sees us as on the same level of pond scum and foot fungus? One Who is clueless about what will happen next on the timeline?
Here is one apologetic explanation. Feel free to mock it.
If Jesus is God, why did He not know the hour of His return?
Note that the scripture says that God knows the Day and the Hour. This would be considered as foreknowledge. So puny man (pond scum) get up and point a finger at God and tell Him He is evil. And see where that bit of human independence will get you.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1186 by jar, posted 08-22-2020 7:32 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1192 by jar, posted 08-22-2020 4:01 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1193 of 1444 (881352)
08-22-2020 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1192 by jar
08-22-2020 4:01 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Your problem is that you judge the God that we market without ever asking God for the answer. You simply continue to question. And the God that you market is conveniently out of reach of your questions. Who palms the pea?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1192 by jar, posted 08-22-2020 4:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1194 by jar, posted 08-22-2020 4:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1201 of 1444 (881368)
08-23-2020 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1200 by jar
08-22-2020 7:56 PM


Re: Proof God has no free will?
jar writes:
The God you and the Apologists market foreknowingly CREATES people who will be damned regardless of what they do.
Where does it say this in the Bible?
  • Also where does it say that God is unknowable until after we die? The apologists market a God Who is knowable through Jesus Christ.
    jar writes:
    In Genesis 2&3 there is no Fall, rather Adam and Eve become more like God. In the story it is the Serpent that tells the truth and the God that lies or at best tells half truths and made up stuff.
    It is interesting that humans would make up such a story. What possible purpose would such a tale serve? And why do so few Christians even market that story the way that you do? What does the snake character represent? Why is the God you interpret through your skilled reading of the scriptures a mere creation of humans? Do apologists simply ignore the wisdom of a critical thinking curmudgeon from Texas? Why should we believe your interpretation? Is the Emperor wearing any clothes?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1200 by jar, posted 08-22-2020 7:56 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1202 by jar, posted 08-23-2020 7:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1212 of 1444 (881407)
    08-23-2020 3:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 1195 by AnswersInGenitals
    08-22-2020 5:17 PM


    Re: Proof God has no free will?
    If God didn’t want Adam or Eve to eat the Fruit Of the Tree Of Knowledge (FOTOK), why did he put the tree in the garden of eden?
    The apologetic answer (words I invent to attempt to describe the story and elaborate on what is written) is that the newly created humans were not created good or evil but simply as innocent babies, though in the form of adults. The Tree of knowledge was allowed to exiswt so that humans would have free access to know evil, or what is was that God disapproved of by definition. (Since God is good, not complete as some ignorant scholars might suggest) Evil is acknowledged by God, yet is not the character of God. This stuff gets deep and as I attempt to defend my own beliefs, I realize that my opponents have challenged me with questions that disprove much of what I teach. Stay tuned....

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1195 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 08-22-2020 5:17 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1213 of 1444 (881409)
    08-23-2020 3:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 1164 by Juvenissun
    08-20-2020 5:42 PM


    Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
    ringo writes:
    God is in the imagination of humans, along with leprechauns and the Tooth Fairy.
    Juvenissun, allow me to teach you how to approach any argument that you may have here at EvC Forum with an unbeliever.
    First, you need to approach the argument knowing the differences between yourself and your opponent. ringo has never claimed to be an atheist, but he once was in church believing (as he claims) everything that we now do. Having a searching and inquisitive mind, and having grown up in the sixties when the young of that era fought against the establishment and conservative empire building schemes of Nixon and the Republicans, ringo has been an advocate of socialism as the best system of people helping others.
    As he rejected organized religion and embraced the reality of humans helping humans, he concluded that it was the message that was important and not the messenger.(Jesus Christ) To his credit, ringo reads the Bible and uses it skillfully to challenge the assumptions of believing Christians. He has convicted me a time or two, and although he claims that the Bible is no more important of a book that The Legend Of Long John Silver or The Lord Of The Rings, he rubs it in the face of Christians attempting to use it to school him.
    jar has also read the Bible and even taught classes on it at one of the Episcopal churches he attended. To understand jar, read his Belief Statement. Message 1
    These are the two main EvC Forum members that will challenge everything you have ever believed. You will be tempted to get mad at them, but try not to do so.
    jars error is in never settling on Jesus Christ as an answer. He will incredulously ask what that even means. He does not understand or believe that there are two spirits..the spirit of the age,and the Holy Spirit.
    Likewise, ringo teaches us to accept the message of Jesus but that accepting Jesus is less important. He would advocate accepting all humans as equal. He has erred by incorrectly placing Jesus in the category of myth.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1164 by Juvenissun, posted 08-20-2020 5:42 PM Juvenissun has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1214 by ringo, posted 08-23-2020 3:51 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 1215 by jar, posted 08-23-2020 3:51 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1216 of 1444 (881413)
    08-23-2020 4:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 1215 by jar
    08-23-2020 3:51 PM


    Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
    Seeing is believing. You wont see the spirits (or Spirit) themselves but you will see their appearance manifest by and through what the person does, says, and how they behave.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1215 by jar, posted 08-23-2020 3:51 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1217 by jar, posted 08-23-2020 4:23 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1228 of 1444 (881459)
    08-24-2020 4:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 1224 by ringo
    08-24-2020 9:23 AM


    Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
    If the answer was ever truly in your head and your heart and the answer was Jesus Christ, I would argue that you cant really outgrow Him as easily as you would a Santa Claus myth, spaghetti monster mythos, or any other fool thing that humans believe. Unless you finally concluded that human wisdom made God rather than the other way around. In which case I argue that you are WRONG. I dont care how many years you put in. Science and its method are great for telling us facts about material reality but are no better than spiritual belief and experience at defining and/or disproving God. You simply chose to no longer believe...for whatever reason.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1224 by ringo, posted 08-24-2020 9:23 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1229 by Tangle, posted 08-24-2020 4:44 PM Phat has replied
     Message 1239 by ringo, posted 08-24-2020 9:07 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1240 of 1444 (881511)
    08-25-2020 1:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 1229 by Tangle
    08-24-2020 4:44 PM


    Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
    I was about 14 and I'd never heard of evolution or the scientific method. Just accept it, I believed exactly like you, then I didn't. Don't try to spin it, it's a fact.
    Did you ever see unexplained behavior,voices coming out of people that sounded nothing like them, bodies convulsing on the floor, and after the "excorcism, radiant peace and healing tears? Did you ever hear several voices at once come out of someone that no human could imitate such a sound? Did you have your hair stand on end? Did you realize that at worst, you were definitely experiencing something unexplained? That's a fact for me

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1229 by Tangle, posted 08-24-2020 4:44 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1243 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2020 2:35 AM Phat has replied
     Message 1255 by ringo, posted 08-25-2020 12:21 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1241 of 1444 (881512)
    08-25-2020 1:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 1239 by ringo
    08-24-2020 9:07 PM


    Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
    ringo writes:
    Again, that's not an argument. It's pretty clear you don't have one.
    No, you are correct. All that I have are my experiences. Experiences that you likely never had. Like you, I saw many "Christians" behaving as bad or worse than secular folks in the local bar---even after they were drunk. I had many reasons I could have used to leave the faith. Whats the difference between you and I?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1239 by ringo, posted 08-24-2020 9:07 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1254 by ringo, posted 08-25-2020 12:13 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1242 of 1444 (881513)
    08-25-2020 1:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 1238 by jar
    08-24-2020 8:09 PM


    Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
    jar writes:
    It is impossible for there to be evidence of anything supernatural. Period.
    There can be unexplained things but even unexplained and unexplainable events are not evidence of anything but that they happened.
    But the topic of course is free will and omniscience and the ONLY possible conclusion is trying to market an omniscient god that is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen but that also condemns people to hell is that that god is simply evil and unworthy of respect or worship.
    I agree that there never will be objective evidence of the supernatural (although unexplained can sometimes later be explained)
    I also see the argument you are attempting to make about an all-knowing God, but what type of God are you trying to say would better explain things? Oner who did noty foreknow anything? One who allowed humans to become the decisions that they made and either knew them or "never knew" them? The latter explanation works for me....I cannot imagine a God with limited power, but I can imagine a God Who allows humans to choose their destiny to an extent. Foreknowledge is an UN-necessary characteristic.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1238 by jar, posted 08-24-2020 8:09 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1247 by jar, posted 08-25-2020 7:19 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1244 of 1444 (881516)
    08-25-2020 5:50 AM
    Reply to: Message 1243 by Tangle
    08-25-2020 2:35 AM


    Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
    tangle writes:
    I've seen many of those but only in a mental hospital where they belong.
    Demonic manifestations happen in mental hospitals also. No, I cannot prove it to the satisfaction of science, but such manifestation has been reported by many sane people. The fact that *you* think its daft does not make it so.
    Tangle writes:
    If those things happened in the church I attended my parents would have had the sense not to take me there - it would be child abuse.
    I could see how reasonable parents would protect their children from such knowledge...but the parents themselves would do better to face the unknown reality which scientific evidence cannot prove or disprove since there is no way to objectivly measure such activity.
    I believe though cannot prove that this stuff is real. I also realize and will readily admit that 80% of it is either sensationalism(to drum up business) or is counterfeit manifestations from the occult side of the spirit world in order to discredit the power of God (Creator of all seen and unseen...Jesus Father) and finally I know that I will never convince you. If I tell you that religion is *not* going to quietly go away as the world turns to its new "god" of science, you will tell me that I am clinging to a fantasy. So if we ever do go fishing I suggest we steer clear of talking about religion and beliefs. I am not a loon worthy of a mental hospital (as best as I can determine) but I do respect science, psychology, and psychiatry for what these disciplines of human knowledge can give us. You, on the other hand, dismiss anything that cannot be pinned down by evidence or that can be (in your opinion) better explained through natural means. Hey...I dont blame you for believing as you do.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1243 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2020 2:35 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1246 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2020 6:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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