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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1311 of 1444 (881874)
09-02-2020 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1310 by jar
09-02-2020 6:52 PM


Re: God does not simply know everyone.
jar writes:
It is only doing that has any value and the value is based in what is done, not why it was done or who it was done for or any of the other nonsense that the Apologist Shils market.
OK lets have a look at it again. The GOATS:
Matt 25:41-46 NKJV writes:
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
My point is that if the goats had never met Jesus, at worst they would be catering to favored people and not to the needy folks and would not even have a clue who Jesus was or who God was...they would simply find themselves at this judgement day and watch the sheep get blessed.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1310 by jar, posted 09-02-2020 6:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1312 by jar, posted 09-02-2020 8:13 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1313 of 1444 (881876)
09-02-2020 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1312 by jar
09-02-2020 8:13 PM


Re: God does not simply know everyone.
Oh stop. I have fed and clothed people and do so to this day. I visited many in prison. My point is that I did favor the youth when I visited prisons....but I have also ministered to the least of these. You really need to get off your soapbox concerning the pathetic state of the CCoI. You have an irrational disgust regarding "them". I cant figure out if you are simply mad that they believe the way they do or whether you are disgusted that they dont feed anybody or visit prisoins, but you better back off of me...ive likely done more of that stuff than you have. And I'm not boasting....its simply what Ive done since becoming a Christian in 1993. It did take me a few years to actually feel the need to do anything, I will admit.
But im not looking to impress Jesus. I do what I do just because its what I feel needs doing. Ringo claims I dont do what Jesus says to do, but I fail to see where I fall short...perhaps you know.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1312 by jar, posted 09-02-2020 8:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1314 by jar, posted 09-02-2020 8:50 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1323 by ringo, posted 09-03-2020 12:40 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1315 of 1444 (881880)
09-03-2020 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1314 by jar
09-02-2020 8:50 PM


Returning to The Topic
You insist upon pushing your warped (critically thinking derived and void of any Godly inspiration) Theology upon the Forum, as usual. Before we go any further, however, lets return to the topic. I read an argument and a refutation of the argument regarding the nature of omniscience and free will.
quote:
Argument from the impossibility of omniscience and free will:
  • God is omniscient
  • God has a free will
  • Entities with free will have non-determinate futures
  • Omniscience entails foreknowledge
  • If an entity knows the future, the future is not non-determinate
    **********
    Refutation
  • God is omniscient
  • God has a free will
    Free will must be defined before the argument can be attempted. Does it mean to be able to choose anything--even something contrary to one's nature; or, does it mean being able to choose something consistent with one's nature?
    God is free to do whatever he desires. God is not free to act in a manner contrary to his nature. No Christian theologian teaches he does.
  • Entities with free will have non-determinate futures
    This is an assumption that has not been proven. A person can freely choose to act and have that act be known by God, but God knowing what a person freely chooses to do does not mean the person wasn’t free to choose it.
    The determination of a future event chosen by a free will restricts the future event to that choice because the person had freely made that choice. The person was free to choose it or something else, and the choice is determined at that time.
  • Omniscience entails foreknowledge
    What is foreknowledge? Knowing what will happen in the future by extrapolation or knowing by experience since God’s existence is everywhere, all the time? Foreknowledge then wouldn’t be a looking into the future but a knowing of the future free will choices of people.
  • You will argue that if "the God" has foreknowledge that humans will end up choosing unwisely and thus ending up damned, then that God is evil and should be opposed. Am I correct or did I add to your argument?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1314 by jar, posted 09-02-2020 8:50 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1316 by jar, posted 09-03-2020 10:56 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1317 of 1444 (881883)
    09-03-2020 11:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 1316 by jar
    09-03-2020 10:56 AM


    Re: Returning to The Topic
    jar writes:
    If "the God" having foreknowledge that humans will end up choosing unwisely still creates the human that thus ends up damned, then that God is pure evil and must be condemned and opposed.
    So what if I end up being a goat? According to the scripture I get damned based on what I unwisely chose. Are you telling me that God does not see this as He is eternal and timeless?
    And when you say "that God is pure evil and must be condemned and opposed"
    I think in terms of Satan. God is good. Satan isn't. But what confuses me about your Theology is you and ringo insisting that the metaphorical snake told the truth. Everyone knows that satan has no truth in him.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1316 by jar, posted 09-03-2020 10:56 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1320 by jar, posted 09-03-2020 12:22 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1318 of 1444 (881888)
    09-03-2020 12:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 1316 by jar
    09-03-2020 10:56 AM


    Re: Returning to The Topic
    Actually...in thinking about what you said, I can see a way to agree with you to a degree.
    jar writes:
    If "the God" having foreknowledge that humans will end up choosing unwisely still creates the human that thus ends up damned, then that God is pure evil and must be condemned and opposed.
    The key concept that I see is the idea of creation ion general. God may well have created us in that He birthed us (through our family) but He is not responsible for our day to day creative thought. Thus, the idea that *we are responsible* leaps out at me. We become the decisions that we make. Thus, if God theoretically knew what I would choose He would also know on a day by day basis what I am choosing (day by day) and if I ended up damned it really would be His fault for not speaking to me in the still small voice which I believe He does have. God did not create me to fail. Thus, I can now see jars argument. (I think)

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1316 by jar, posted 09-03-2020 10:56 AM jar has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1319 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2020 12:11 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1321 of 1444 (881895)
    09-03-2020 12:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 1319 by Tangle
    09-03-2020 12:11 PM


    Re: Returning to The Topic
    Some things take time. And I never learned it from you...you don't even believe that God exists so how could you have taught me? O Tangled one, perhaps we should go fishing.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1319 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2020 12:11 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1324 by ringo, posted 09-03-2020 12:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 1325 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2020 1:54 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1327 of 1444 (882860)
    10-22-2020 10:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 1326 by PaulK
    10-22-2020 8:23 AM


    Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
    PaulK writes:
    Remember, my position is that if God creates a universe, knowing everything that will happen in it, then God has primary responsibility for those events.
    Why? Since when do humans demand that God be responsible when it is we who should be required to be responsible? And one would think that part of what our responsibility entails is to acknowledge that God is in a position over us and not something to be defined by us. It amazes me that some are oblivious to this position.
    PaulK resonding to Stile writes:
    You are leaving out the whole question of certain foreknowledge, despite the fact that you intentionally introduced that element and in spite of the fact that it is an essential part of the assignment of responsibility. Indeed, we had already agreed that simple creation without understanding the consequences is different.
    Why must certain foreknowledge eliminate our responsibility? In theory, it should be irrelevant to us what God knows and doesn't know. We have no right to hold Him accountable--but only ourselves. Whether or not He smites us out of existence or not is beyond our control anyway and for us to hold Him accountable would only hypothetically be logical if we had a relationship with Him and knew our place rather than us arbitrarily setting the ground rules of the relationship.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1326 by PaulK, posted 10-22-2020 8:23 AM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1328 by jar, posted 10-22-2020 10:31 AM Phat has replied
     Message 1329 by PaulK, posted 10-22-2020 10:48 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1330 of 1444 (882863)
    10-22-2020 10:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 1328 by jar
    10-22-2020 10:31 AM


    Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
    If God is the creator of all that is seen and unseen then God is responsible for all that it created.
    I challenge thatg assumption. Is a parent responsible for their childs behavior beyond the age of accountability? Is that Grandparent responsible for how their child raises their grandchildren? Why then must God be responsible for our behavior and our choices?
    If God is the creator of all that is seen and unseen and God has foreknowledge then God is responsible for all that is done by what it created.
    Foreknowledge is irrelevant. It is quite simply none of our business what God knows and when.
    If God is the creator of all that is seen and unseen and God has foreknowledge then God is responsible for all that is done by what it created and if anything created is then damned then that God is also evil and unworthy of anything but contempt.
    Perhaps in this case you have an argument.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1328 by jar, posted 10-22-2020 10:31 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1331 by jar, posted 10-22-2020 11:41 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 1332 by ringo, posted 10-22-2020 12:14 PM Phat has replied
     Message 1336 by Tangle, posted 10-22-2020 12:55 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1333 of 1444 (882866)
    10-22-2020 12:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 1332 by ringo
    10-22-2020 12:14 PM


    Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
    Either we're responsible and God is irrelevant or God is responsible.
    You always make these blanket assumptions. I've no problem with us being responsible but how on Gods green earth does this then make Him irrelevant?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1332 by ringo, posted 10-22-2020 12:14 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1334 by ringo, posted 10-22-2020 12:27 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1335 of 1444 (882868)
    10-22-2020 12:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 1334 by ringo
    10-22-2020 12:27 PM


    Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
    The same way that the Pope is irrelevant to your decision on whom you vote for. If you're responsible, somebody else isn't. That's pretty simple.
    Not really equivalent at all.
    The Pope is human. God isnt. Now it may well turn out that God is irrelevant or non existent but this is not conclusive and thus God cannot be judged irrelevant except by your uninformed choice.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1334 by ringo, posted 10-22-2020 12:27 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1337 by ringo, posted 10-22-2020 12:57 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1338 of 1444 (882877)
    10-22-2020 9:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 1337 by ringo
    10-22-2020 12:57 PM


    Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
    OK, I think I see your point. I would tweak it a bit, though.
    The point is that if God is not responsible for YOUR choices, then He IS irrelevant TO your choices.
    So if I believe that He exists and that He is in Communion with me due to my having accepted Him, and if I then try and live my life as close as possible to reflecting what I would imagine His choices to be in my daily behavior, (spare change, doing good for whomever crosses my path, smiling more...impacting others lives in a positive fashion) then He is in a sense responsible for taking care of all of us and fulfilling His duties as a sovereign good God. We were taught that it is by Grace we are saved and not solely by works...in other words, we cant legally hold Him liable for saving us from eternal death. Our only job is to try and do our best as our own conscience dictates. We freely choose our choices and decisions, however. God does not control us like marionettes or zombies.
    It doesn't matter whether He's human or not. It doesn't matter whether He exists or not. He can not be relevant to your choices unless He influences your choices.
    So in that context I agree. You claim that the message should influence our choices and that it is an internal charge. Or at least you hold me to that standard while declaring that you owe no "God" anything. Am I not right?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1337 by ringo, posted 10-22-2020 12:57 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1341 by ringo, posted 10-23-2020 12:12 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1339 of 1444 (882878)
    10-22-2020 9:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 1336 by Tangle
    10-22-2020 12:55 PM


    Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
    How can they be responsible for the childs decisions? They would be responsible if they aborted the baby, however. Responsible for one death rather than many thousands, you might say.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1336 by Tangle, posted 10-22-2020 12:55 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1340 by Tangle, posted 10-23-2020 2:23 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1342 of 1444 (882882)
    10-23-2020 12:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 1341 by ringo
    10-23-2020 12:12 PM


    Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
    ringo writes:
    Well, if God is omniscient and He "advises" you on what to do, why would you not take His advice?
    Many of us do take His advice...on most things. As I drive to work, I often say a prayer regarding the day ahead of me. And as I drive by the "homeless tree" under which is always a panhandler or two, I often give to them...thopugh not every time and not every day. You have argued before that the message is the sum of what He says to us...but how on earth realistically could every Christian give away all that they had? Why on earth would I even be working...for everyone else? In that I was the provider for a whole street full of homeless people? I dont take scripture to be an ongoing message for me on a daily and ongoing basis. As I said, I dont give up my spare change every single day and especially if its the same guy (which it usually is) I dont donate a daily wage to him. But back to God:
    And if He's feeding you the "right answers" how is He not responsible for you acting on them?
    If that were true, He would save everybody by default and be 100% responsible for our destiny. I dont believe that everyone will be saved and I dont believe that 100% of that responsibility is Gods. We too choose what we listen to and act upon, and thus we too are responsible.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1341 by ringo, posted 10-23-2020 12:12 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1344 by ringo, posted 10-23-2020 1:25 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1345 of 1444 (882886)
    10-24-2020 2:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 1344 by ringo
    10-23-2020 1:25 PM


    Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
    ringo writes:
    I have argued that Jesus happened to understand the message - as many preachers, priests and prophets have done throughout history.
    A message needs to be created/formed/defined by a human who speaks the language. Messages dont just appear out of thin air.
    ...but how on earth realistically could every Christian give away all that they had?
    ringo writes:
    Ask the early Christians. Ask the disciples.
    Think this through. Lets say that next Tuesday in N.America, everyone who professed to be a true Christian was ordered by Rome and the WCC to give away all that they had. Now...who would they give it to? Rome? Their Pastor? The government? (Surely not! BIG Mistake!) There are no Apostles to whom we must lay it at their feet. Thus...the question remains. Who would get YOUR house, ringo? (Oh thats right...you are not a believer! You got outta that one!!
    ringo writes:
    That's what Jesus recommended.
    You dont know the first thing about what Jesus would say to you or I today. All you do is quote a 1000 year old book. Your argument is designed only to expose Christian hypocrasy. You have no other motive nor reason to make it except to explain why you stopped believing.
    ringo writes:
    It's hard to understand why you pay any attention to scripture at all.
    Well I know why YOU do it. It happens to support your favorite axion: From Each According To His Ability To Each According To His Need.
    ringo writes:
    According to what Jesus said in the Bible, YOU won't be saved - so it's no surprise that you don't like what the Bible says.
    According to what Jesus tells me, I am only to try and do my best every day and listen to His inner voice. I am in no way told that His message is limited to the book nor that He is only a character within that book.
    ... and I dont believe that 100% of that responsibility is Gods.
    ringo writes:
    I didn't say He was 100% responsible. I said He was more than 0% responsible. And if He is more than 0% responsible for bad things that happen, He can not be 100% good, as you fantasize.
    And to whom is He responsible? If you say "to all of us" I will charge you with making up a God who is a product of your imagination.bThe One whom I imagine is all knowing and all powerful and has no obligation towards humanity beyond providing us with eternal life IF we try our best and believe that He is ultimately good and not a bad God in need of elimination from our collective consciousness.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1344 by ringo, posted 10-23-2020 1:25 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1357 by ringo, posted 10-24-2020 12:30 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1346 of 1444 (882887)
    10-24-2020 2:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 1343 by Stile
    10-23-2020 1:12 PM


    Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
    The reason that people challenge perfect foreknowledge is that it eliminates their right to freely choose a course of action (and able to change their mind in so doing) which thus negates Gods foreknowledge. In other words, Paul is charging that God does not get to change His mind and play back the tape but that PaulK does hypothetically get to change his own mind and thus have a perfect free will which is unencumberedby God knowing the decisions after the fact. Does that make sense?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1343 by Stile, posted 10-23-2020 1:12 PM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1364 by Stile, posted 10-27-2020 4:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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