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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1347 of 1444 (882888)
10-24-2020 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1340 by Tangle
10-23-2020 2:23 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Would you have a child knowing in advance that he would murder a million people?
No. But its different applying this argument to indict God. Perhaps He never should have created humans at all then....according to your logic. OR more precisely he should have only created good humans. In which case one could argue that by allowing Satan to exist, God blew the whole deal BIG TIME.
Would you give a gun to someone who you knew for certain would use it to kill children at a school?
Again, No. But should we hold the initial creator/inventor of guns responsible for all deaths made by guns?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1340 by Tangle, posted 10-23-2020 2:23 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1355 by Tangle, posted 10-24-2020 4:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1348 of 1444 (882889)
10-24-2020 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1329 by PaulK
10-22-2020 10:48 AM


Cosmic Battles
Because God knowingly decided that those things would happen, and as a consequence they inescapably will.
How do we know that our actions and choices don't play a role in the outcome? Whether He foreknows it or not is none of our business. Our business is to merely try and do our best. Whether that action in time reflects on His foreknowledge in eterntity is outside of our knowledge anyway.
Given that, how could God not be responsible? Are you going to argue that God can’t understand what he’s doing?
No. I am merely arguing that the focus is to be on our responsibility given what we know. It is irrelevant what He knows and is outside of our power to judge, influence or change...apart from our behavior and choice of actions. In addition, suppose that God allowed Satan to exist and thus we are in a universe with the free choice to internalize Gods Spirit or listen to the other spirits. The choice then again becomes ours. God is only responsible for allowing evil to exist, but it couyld be argued that He did that to give us a choice and to allow us to choose Him rather than be manditorily forced to accept Him. It also gets Him off the hook for evil...apart from allowing it to manifest.
PaulK writes:
We do not have a duty to be sycophants. If you insist we do, you paint God as a tyrant. And you know my feelings about that.
Gotta look this up.
Dictionary writes:
Sycophant: A person who attempts to gain advantage by flattering influential people or behaving in a servile manner.
To give information about, or tell tales of, in order to gain favor; calumniate.
To play the sycophant toward; flatter meanly and officiously.
I would argue that we are not necessarily sycophants towards God. In fact, such behavior would lean more towards the evil side. Of course, you may reject the idea of the possibility of a cosmic spiritual war and insist that all blame and responsibility be placed on God. It may be too late though. Satan very well could exist.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1329 by PaulK, posted 10-22-2020 10:48 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1349 by PaulK, posted 10-24-2020 3:19 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1350 of 1444 (882891)
10-24-2020 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1349 by PaulK
10-24-2020 3:19 AM


Re: Cosmic Battles
I was referring to your attempts to deny God’s responsibility even when God clearly does have the primary responsibility.
Well in a grand cosmic sense, God is responsible for everything. The only question left is whether or not we have free will.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1349 by PaulK, posted 10-24-2020 3:19 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1351 by PaulK, posted 10-24-2020 3:46 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1352 of 1444 (882893)
10-24-2020 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1351 by PaulK
10-24-2020 3:46 AM


Re: Cosmic Battles
PaulK writes:
The real question is to what extent God has predetermined our choices.
Agreed. jar has successfully argued that a God Who foreknowingly damns us is evil. I would argue that such type of predetermination is wrong. God does not determine our destiny. We do. God is only responsible in that He allowed two possible destinies.
We have limited free will only in that we cannot freely choose a third destiny, for example.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1351 by PaulK, posted 10-24-2020 3:46 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1353 by PaulK, posted 10-24-2020 3:57 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1354 of 1444 (882895)
10-24-2020 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1353 by PaulK
10-24-2020 3:57 AM


Re: Cosmic Battles
OK, but its a nonsensical argument to be made by us IF in fact we seek no relationship with this God. God is gonna do what He is goona do and we have no power to change it. If we in fact have free will (which one could argue is desireable) it wont happen automatically without encountering and relating to this God. I would argue that this reality alone is not irrelevant. Comments?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1353 by PaulK, posted 10-24-2020 3:57 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1356 by PaulK, posted 10-24-2020 5:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1358 of 1444 (882900)
10-24-2020 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1357 by ringo
10-24-2020 12:30 PM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
No, other social species understand the message too.
I have yet to see *any* animal species give all that it has (or even some) to other members of its species apart from perhaps its own biological offspring. Perhaps, however, you could argue that beavers give to the natural ecosystem through instinct but thats all you really have. Quit making silly arguments which are irrelevant to human arguments.
They're passed down in the DNA. Don't be fooled by the word "message". The message is just a formalization of what we all know to be true.
Truth through DNA? How convenient that it fits in with the lie you believe that no God is required.
(regarding giving all that one has to "the cause")
As I said, ask the disciples and the early church. They did it, didn't they? Or is hat another part of the Bible that you throw away?
Sorry to burst your Leftist bubble, but that will never happen. So I'm supposed to give my house to others? Where then will I live? Oh...someone will give me another house, you say? Lets just skip a step. Ownership of private property is a right which I support.
I keep telling you, nobody is "ordering" you to do it. It's voluntary. Most professing Christians, including you, wouldn't do it.
Newsflash: Most people in general wouldnt do it. Your Marxist fantasies fall on deaf ears. The global population will likely never be "equal" in terms of basic necessities for a long time. And I highly doubt that Jesus expects any different. Reality is what it is. As He Himself said, "The poor you will always have with you".
You can spit on the Bible all you like but the fact is it's the only reference to Jesus that you have. Your "experiences" are worthless.
Actually it is you who have been internally lied to.
Scripture says it better than I could:
Psalm 14:1 ESV--The fool says in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.
And Jesus is no Marxist liberal. (Granted He wouldnt approve of strict conservatism either)

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1357 by ringo, posted 10-24-2020 12:30 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1365 by ringo, posted 10-27-2020 8:21 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1366 of 1444 (883118)
11-07-2020 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1365 by ringo
10-27-2020 8:21 PM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
Phat writes:
The global population will likely never be "equal" in terms of basic necessities for a long time. And I highly doubt that Jesus expects any different. Reality is what it is. As He Himself said, "The poor you will always have with you".
ringo writes:
He didn't say they would always be the same poor.
What sense does that make? So one guy has a house and sells it to give to the poor. So then he becomes poor? Utter nonsense! Hey I'm not saying in any way that Jesus expects us to give without grumbling or begrudgingly out of obligation. The Lord loves a cheerful giver. Today's modern Republicans tend to give if they can write it off of their taxes. Very few people are simply going to sell all that they have and go skipping down the road being like Jesus (Who had no place to lay His head.) Nevertheless He owned the cattle on a thousand hills. He became broken (and broke) for all of us. So in a sense I can see where you argue that He wanted us to do likewise.
Feed,Comfort and Encourage others.
Note, however, that He never commanded everyone whom He had contact with to give all that they had. Zacheus gave half...voluntarily. Mary and Martha likely had a place to live. And about this idea that the poor are not always the same poor....how exactly does that work?
In essence, I am arguing with you (or with Jesus, can't discern which) that He surely is OK with how I am living, though He encourages me to become less selfish. As of yet, in all my prayers, I have never heard Him tell me to give it all up except metaphorically. And you argue that you are not expected to do so because you are not a believer. Some cop-out!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1365 by ringo, posted 10-27-2020 8:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1367 by Tangle, posted 11-07-2020 11:13 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1376 by ringo, posted 11-13-2020 8:14 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1368 of 1444 (883128)
11-07-2020 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1367 by Tangle
11-07-2020 11:13 AM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
I'll tell you one thing...I'm not gonna walk around like a barefoot hippie preaching love if I don't even have a pot to piss in. If you guys get to keep your stuff I'm sure keeping mine.; Ringo and you insist that Jesus is just a character in a book of rules written by humans. Granted you can charge mee with making Him up, but I stand by the Jesus I pray to and commune with. He is no mere statue or icon.
You guys just brought up the suggestion for me to give up everything I had in order to show me how weak my faith actually is.
Thanks a lot!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1367 by Tangle, posted 11-07-2020 11:13 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1369 by Tangle, posted 11-07-2020 3:38 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1370 of 1444 (883174)
11-10-2020 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1369 by Tangle
11-07-2020 3:38 PM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
tangle writes:
But you didn't actually answer my question, has god ever asked you to do anything you didn't want to do?
Though I'm not 100% sure it was God asking me to do it rather than my intuitive mind, I believe that I have been told that I am to fast for 3 days. I know that it is logical and rational, yet I can't make myself do it. So far, that is...

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1369 by Tangle, posted 11-07-2020 3:38 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1371 by Tangle, posted 11-11-2020 3:09 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1372 of 1444 (883176)
11-11-2020 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1371 by Tangle
11-11-2020 3:09 AM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
tangle writes:
Yes, I can see that that might be a difficulty... But you seem to be only having cause to doubt God's voice when it's asking you to do something you don't want to do?
It is always wise to question(not doubt, necessarily) what inner voice or unction that I have. The Bible tells us to test the spirits.
Tangle writes:
The words 'logical' and 'rational' don't apply here Phat.
Au Contraire, O Tangled One. A 3 day fast with water only will do more towards positively helping my health than any handful of pills or even a specific pill would do.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1371 by Tangle, posted 11-11-2020 3:09 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1373 by Tangle, posted 11-11-2020 1:59 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1374 of 1444 (883186)
11-13-2020 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1373 by Tangle
11-11-2020 1:59 PM


Tangling With Tangles Logic
But you only seem to find reasons to question stuff that you don't want to do?
Well sure. Why on earth would I eveen want to find a reason to question God when he tells me something that I want to do? Even if it was not His voice, I want to follow that discipline anyway. As I said before, I find it harder to obey when it is something that i don't want to do. Now...granted you guys cleverly found something in "the book" that seemed to be a command in general.(sell all that you have and give it to the poor) and I promptly went into defensive mode.
I can come up with several excuses:
1) I don't listen to the character in the book if He is talking to a rich young ruler. And 2) I feel that there is evidence that Jesus (in the book) did most certainly NOT command the same from everyone He encountered. I feel that some of you...notably lingo...have no problem imagining Jesus as a socialist with no private possessions. Its easy to do if you have the power to own everything.
And I will admit that my faith is weak...I certainly wont be the first to give it all up.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1373 by Tangle, posted 11-11-2020 1:59 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1375 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2020 4:11 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1377 of 1444 (883197)
11-14-2020 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1376 by ringo
11-13-2020 8:14 PM


Tit For Tat With Ringo & Phat
I help the poor because it's the right thing to do, not because somebody told me to.
Me too. My point of contention with your form of liberalism is that the people collectively make you give. "They" tell me to do it if they gain enough power. That's even worse than God telling you.
Thats why I say that the Lord loves a cheerful giver. Its much better to have freedom to give or not give.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1376 by ringo, posted 11-13-2020 8:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1378 by ringo, posted 11-16-2020 11:14 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1379 of 1444 (883242)
11-23-2020 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1378 by ringo
11-16-2020 11:14 AM


Re: Tit For Tat With Ringo & Phat
Phat writes:
My point of contention with your form of liberalism is that the people collectively make you give.
But they don't. They can't.
They do it through voting in mandatory taxation on the middle class....those who make under $200,000 a year but more than the average.
At least Republicans advocate voluntary giving to the charity of their choice rather than forcing the small business owning middle(working) class to cough up the money to help the poor.
Phat writes:
"They" tell me to do it if they gain enough power.
It has nothing to do with "power"
It does if they raise taxes. Why should I get penalized by some socialist ideology that since I have the "ability" to help others in need I should be mandatorily shoehorned into doing so?
Phat writes:
Thats why I say that the Lord loves a cheerful giver.
And I'll remind you that He kills the ones who hold back.
Quite a claim coming from a guy who loves to quote what the book says yet does no0t believe in the God in the book. If I give spare change it should be my decision rather than a tax law designed to make me give.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1378 by ringo, posted 11-16-2020 11:14 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1380 by ringo, posted 11-25-2020 11:36 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1381 of 1444 (883277)
11-25-2020 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1380 by ringo
11-25-2020 11:36 AM


Re: Tit For Tat With Ringo & Phat
ringo writes:
I DEFINITELY DO promote equality.
All men are created equal. Thus I too promote equality in that measure. What I dont promote is eliminating the middle working class and "raise the tide" so that I make as much as you do. If you want to make what I make you need to earn it. Not have it handed to you and all the other "spangers" hanging out at the library or local pub.
And if you come work at my store, you start out making ten bucks an hour pushing carts. You dont geet hired to run my cash register while I am forced to do harder labor simply because I make more due to having worked 30 years in the industry.
And if you are a minority class demanding reparations for what the US did to you for 100 years, I'm not paying any extra bill. We are all equal, remember?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1380 by ringo, posted 11-25-2020 11:36 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1382 by ringo, posted 11-26-2020 11:37 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1383 of 1444 (883317)
11-27-2020 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1382 by ringo
11-26-2020 11:37 AM


Re: Tit For Tat With Ringo & Phat
I want to clear a few things up in regards to myself, what I believe, and what I know deep down to be true. So in regards to my assertion that you want to eliminate the middle working class, you adamantly deny that you do. You want to raise the poor masses up to a level where they too can support themselves. I would guess that you are a few years older than I, and likely retired or semi retired. You have simple needs, as should I. I require food, clothing, shelter, and some sort of universal health care. Now to be realistic, Canada and the United States can afford to support their poor to a degree while other third world countries cannot. Mexico, for example, has no social security. It is the job of the children in the family to help support their parents.
One fear that I have is the idea that I, as a working class American who barely has much savings apart from what I may inherit some day am expected to care for the poor impoverished masses globally. And I believe this is what the conservative agenda fears about globalism. It is one thing to feed clothe and shelter the old people in Saskatchewan and quite another to also be responsible for Africa, India, and South America...Mexico included. Granted we don't do that now...except through the humanitarian aid and the military industrial complex fighting other power groups intent on exploiting the people...which ends up destabilizing everything anyway.
ringo writes:
I'm advocating that the ones who make less than I do should make as much as I do because it's enough to survive on.
Again, that may work in Canada or the US and some Scandinavian countries, but is impractical as a globalist concept. Milton Friedman had it right. You cannot tax your way to prosperity. There needs to be an engine to generate the wealth to begin with.
AOC has talked of a green new deal. Question is, who in the heck is expected to pay for this practical idea? Greta Thurnberg? Essentially it eliminates the road to getting wealthy. We are all stuck together as a mass of workers against the wealthy rather than aspiring to become comfortable ourselves.
I mean...whats wrong with me wanting a new car with fuel efficiency, windows that roll down,(My old clunker has windows that cant roll down due to a flaw in the design)
Whats wrong with wanting a vacation once a year without worrying if the homeless guy has food and alcohol every day? If I were as altruistic as you (and perhaps Jesus) suggest, I would never be able to acquire things for myself.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1382 by ringo, posted 11-26-2020 11:37 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1384 by ringo, posted 11-27-2020 11:28 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1385 by NosyNed, posted 11-29-2020 9:53 AM Phat has replied

  
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