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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1155 of 1444 (881237)
08-20-2020 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1148 by Phat
08-20-2020 10:19 AM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
He's trying to remove omniscience from God to remove God's responsibility.
How silly!
Nothing silly about it. You have been trying to argue for months that God is not responsible for "our decisions" and you have been shown many times that if He is omniscient and irresponsible, He must be evil.
Phat writes:
If God is omniscient there is little I can do about it...
It has nothing to do with what YOU can do about it. It's about what GOD can do about it.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1148 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 10:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1158 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 3:08 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1172 of 1444 (881277)
08-21-2020 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1158 by Phat
08-20-2020 3:08 PM


Re: Communication With God Is Our Point Of Contention
Phat writes:
There have been attempts to show me, but either I am stupid, as some suggest, willfully ignorant, or more likely the arguments have been incorrectly presented.
I notice that "the argument is wrong" doesn't figure in your list of excuses for not understanding it.
Phat writes:
If so, the argument will remain unsettled until we both can verify communication from or with God.
Don't be silly. If God was evil, He couldn't be counted on to tell the truth, could He? He might tell us, like He told Adam and Eve, that we will die today (where "today" really, really, really means forty years from now).
Phat writes:
... I've never directly addressed our arguments to Him.
Good plan. If you did, you might get no answer at all or you might get an answer you don't want to hear. It's safer to keep your "communication" with God on a nice vague plane.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1158 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 3:08 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1173 of 1444 (881278)
08-21-2020 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1162 by Phat
08-20-2020 3:52 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Phat writes:
You seem to have thrown away the first part and are concentrating only on the second.
How would you go about serving God? How does He take His coffee? Does He prefer mustard or mayonnaise on His sandwich?
As Jesus said elsewhere, you don't love God or serve God by mouthing, "Lord! Lord!"

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1162 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 3:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1177 by Juvenissun, posted 08-21-2020 8:17 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1174 of 1444 (881279)
08-21-2020 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1165 by Juvenissun
08-20-2020 5:49 PM


Re: Difference between Jar and Phat
Juvenissun writes:
In that case, Jar is a normal person, and Phat is a prophet.
Phat's prognostications are as innaccurate as most prophets but his arrogance suggests that he is more of an "attempted prophet".
Juvenissun writes:
A wise person today should be "I'll doubt it when I see it".
Are you trying to be sarcastic or did you get that right by accident?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1165 by Juvenissun, posted 08-20-2020 5:49 PM Juvenissun has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1187 of 1444 (881333)
08-22-2020 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1177 by Juvenissun
08-21-2020 8:17 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Juvenissun writes:
Your interpretation to what Jesus says is FALSE.
Then explain HOW it is false and tell us what "the truth" is.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1177 by Juvenissun, posted 08-21-2020 8:17 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1196 by Juvenissun, posted 08-22-2020 7:23 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1188 of 1444 (881334)
08-22-2020 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1180 by Phat
08-21-2020 8:51 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Phat writes:
He never seems phased when I complain that his philosophy would empty my closet of anything I held back for myself.
And you never explain how that's bad thing. Jesus did it. He required his disciples to do it. He told the rich young ruler to do it. The Roman Church did it. What makes you exempt?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1180 by Phat, posted 08-21-2020 8:51 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1189 of 1444 (881335)
08-22-2020 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1183 by Phat
08-22-2020 5:39 AM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Phat writes:
...you claim to be a Christian yet are an advocate for dismantling the club.
You're fond of talking about "human nature".
Do you think it started yesterday?
I don't. I think it started with the first humans, and though it has evolved over the millennia, it still boils down to survival of the individual versus survival of the species. We want both but we can't always have both.
Jesus came to teach the Pharisees, et al. to think more of society and less of themselves. Do you think "human nature" has changed just because you call yourselves "Christians"?
I don't think so. I think all of us, including you, need to learn the same lessons that Jesus tried to teach the Pharisees.
Isn't it ironic that you claim to be "in communion" with Jesus and yet you deny His teachings.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1183 by Phat, posted 08-22-2020 5:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1190 of 1444 (881336)
08-22-2020 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1185 by Juvenissun
08-22-2020 6:27 AM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Juvenissun writes:
jar writes:
The Bible (and there is no such thing as The Bible) says lots of silly, contradictory and fantasy stuff.
I challenge you to give just ONE such "stuff".
I don't know if jar is speaking to you, so I'll give you one: Talking snake. It's just silly to think it was an actual talking snake.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1185 by Juvenissun, posted 08-22-2020 6:27 AM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1195 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 08-22-2020 5:17 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1199 by Juvenissun, posted 08-22-2020 7:51 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1203 of 1444 (881385)
08-23-2020 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1195 by AnswersInGenitals
08-22-2020 5:17 PM


Re: Proof God has no free will?
AnswersInGenitals writes:
If God didn’t want Adam or Eve to eat the Fruit Of the Tree Of Knowledge (FOTOK)....
I bet you could sell fotok to the health food crowd.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1195 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 08-22-2020 5:17 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1204 of 1444 (881386)
08-23-2020 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1196 by Juvenissun
08-22-2020 7:23 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Juvenissun writes:
Those who cry Lord, Lord, may or may not be believers.
That is a True statement.
Jesus said that "not everyone" who cries Lord! Lord! is a true follower - i.e. professing belief is not a valid indicator.
Juvenissun writes:
Please follow basic logic when you do that.
Check the beam in your own eye.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1196 by Juvenissun, posted 08-22-2020 7:23 PM Juvenissun has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1205 of 1444 (881388)
08-23-2020 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1199 by Juvenissun
08-22-2020 7:51 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Juvennisun writes:
There ARE angelic beings described in the Bible.
The Bible says a lot of things that are patently false. The talking snake is one of the most obvious examples. It's obvious because snakes don't have the physical apparatus required for speech, much like how giraffes do not have the physical apparatus required for juggling.
Juvennisun writes:
do you believe some human can communicate with snakes (and many other animals) today? That is a way of "talk".
The Bible QUOTES the WORDS that the snake spoke. That is not "some kind of communication". It's SPEECH.
The snake is obviously a literary device, a way to present Eve's thought process.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1199 by Juvenissun, posted 08-22-2020 7:51 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1207 by Juvenissun, posted 08-23-2020 10:40 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1211 of 1444 (881406)
08-23-2020 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1207 by Juvenissun
08-23-2020 10:40 AM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Juvenissun writes:
So you do not accept that the snake is an angel? Why not?
Because the Bible says it was a snake.
Juvenissun writes:
Are you going to use science to argue against theology?
I can use the Bible to argue against YOUR theology.
Juvenissun writes:
Where is God in science?
God is in the imagination of humans, along with leprechauns and the Tooth Fairy.
Juvenissun writes:
the Bible is a faith book, not a science book.
Then why do you use it to try to prove the flood happened?
Juvenissun writes:
EVERYTHING said in the Bible is theologically sound and correct.
It's your theology that is not correct, because you're misusing the Bible.
Juvenissun writes:
Your talking snake question has been fully answered.
What question did I ask?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1207 by Juvenissun, posted 08-23-2020 10:40 AM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1218 by Juvenissun, posted 08-23-2020 6:17 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1214 of 1444 (881410)
08-23-2020 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1213 by Phat
08-23-2020 3:28 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
Phat writes:
Having a searching and inquisitive mind, and having grown up in the sixties when the young of that era fought against the establishment and conservative empire building schemes of Nixon and the Republicans, ringo has been an advocate of socialism as the best system of people helping others.
Bear in mind that I'm not using the Krazy Klown definition of socialism that you use.
Phat writes:
As he rejected organized religion and embraced the reality of humans helping humans, he concluded that it was the message that was important and not the messenger.
You have it backwards (as usual). I learned that the message was important from my parents and then again in church. I rejected the idea that the messenger is important because of people like you turning a beautiful and practical message into an ugly personality cult.
Phat writes:
... he claims that the Bible is no more important of a book that The Legend Of Long John Silver....
The title is Treasure Island.
Phat writes:
ringo teaches us to accept the message of Jesus...
The sad part is that you still have to be taught.
Phat writes:
... but that accepting Jesus is less important.
Not "less important". UNimportant. Completely unimportant, as proven by the people of other religions who don't accept your messenger at all but who understand the message much better than you do.
Phat writes:
He would advocate accepting all humans as equal.
You mean you don't? What kind of American are you, rejecting the Declaration of Independence? Remember, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...."?
Phat writes:
He has errored by incorrectly placing Jesus in the category of myth.
And you have never been able to show that that is an error.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1213 by Phat, posted 08-23-2020 3:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1223 of 1444 (881440)
08-24-2020 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1218 by Juvenissun
08-23-2020 6:17 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Juvemissun writes:
I only reply to adult argument, not a kids fight.
I couldn't care less if you reply or not. I'll keep pointing out your errors whether you can handle it or not.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1218 by Juvenissun, posted 08-23-2020 6:17 PM Juvenissun has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1224 of 1444 (881441)
08-24-2020 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1219 by Juvenissun
08-23-2020 6:20 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
Juvenissun writes:
I guess you've never visited a church meeting.
Just so you know, I was practically born in church. I could quote scripture before I could read it. I spent thirty years going to church as much as five times a week. I have seen "speaking in tongues" dozens, maybe hundreds of times.
Juvenissun writes:
The answer is there.
It really isn't.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1219 by Juvenissun, posted 08-23-2020 6:20 PM Juvenissun has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1228 by Phat, posted 08-24-2020 4:10 PM ringo has replied

  
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