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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 359 of 1444 (773256)
11-27-2015 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Phat
11-27-2015 12:04 PM


Re: Evidence Schmevidence
Phat writes:
I base the definition on personal experience.
You can't do that. You do not get to have your own personal language - not if you want to communicate.
Phat writes:
And for the record---NO---I do not need evidence.
Then stop using the word.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Phat, posted 11-27-2015 12:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by Phat, posted 11-29-2015 4:08 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 362 of 1444 (773347)
11-30-2015 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 360 by Phat
11-29-2015 4:08 PM


Re: Evidence Schmevidence
Phat writes:
Which to me would be evidence that the atheist would get saved eventually.
Still not evidence. You can't have evidence before the fact. Criminals don't leave fingerprints until they actually do the crime.
Jesus did (supposedly) say that you will be judged on what you DO, not on what you say - i.e. you will be judged on the evidence that actually exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by Phat, posted 11-29-2015 4:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 370 of 1444 (775714)
01-04-2016 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Phat
01-03-2016 3:51 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phat writes:
... who in their right mind would want to be independent of God, anyway? (Apart from satan)
The fictional character "Satan" represents our own free will. What "Satan" wants IS what we want. Every time we're tempted to do something that we "shouldn't", we're wanting to be independent of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Phat, posted 01-03-2016 3:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by Phat, posted 01-04-2016 4:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 373 of 1444 (775812)
01-05-2016 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by Phat
01-04-2016 4:31 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phat writes:
What this means, then..is that we humans have an inborn desire to rebel.
I wouldn't call it a desire to "rebel". I'd call it a desire to have free will.
Phat writes:
So did God choose it for us by offering it as an option?
According to the Bible, God built it into us from the start - He forced it on us.
What doesn't make sense about a lot of theology is that He would give us free will and then punish us for using it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Phat, posted 01-04-2016 4:31 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Phat, posted 01-07-2016 2:00 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 375 of 1444 (775968)
01-07-2016 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by Phat
01-07-2016 2:00 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phat writes:
I tend to believe that God disciplines (teaches)rather than punishes.
With everlasting torment? How can you learn anything if you don't get a chance to change your behaviour? That would only work if Hell was an empty threat (a lie).
And as I've said (many times) before, I don't see much (any) evidence that He's teaching Christians more than anybody else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Phat, posted 01-07-2016 2:00 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 465 of 1444 (785045)
05-27-2016 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by Phat
05-27-2016 2:57 AM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:
Depends on who is doing the determining.
The question isn't whether or not there "could be" some voodoo entity doing the determining. The question is whether or not YOU can determine anything worthwhile about that voodoo entity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by Phat, posted 05-27-2016 2:57 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by Phat, posted 05-27-2016 4:05 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 468 of 1444 (785164)
05-28-2016 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Phat
05-27-2016 4:05 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:
I trust his perfection.
Well, sure. I trust Long John Silver's one-legged agility. That's the way the character is written.
Phat writes:
If in fact God (for some reason which you refer to as a voodoo entity) has a divine plan, I'm more interested in my own conduct and behavior rather than worrying if I get voodooed or not.
So what does your own conduct and behaviour have to do with any external entity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Phat, posted 05-27-2016 4:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 473 of 1444 (785776)
06-10-2016 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by Phat
06-09-2016 7:43 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:
You guys dont get it. The Body Of Christ is composed of those who know Christ and whom he knows. The Beast is essentially the "Body" of the Antichrist. Those unknown by God.
It's nice to know there's something God doesn't know.
As you know, I have campaigned before to be removed from His list.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Phat, posted 06-09-2016 7:43 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by Phat, posted 06-11-2016 3:11 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 475 of 1444 (785795)
06-11-2016 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 474 by Phat
06-11-2016 3:11 AM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:
OR....perhaps you are referring to the naughty list, of which i would also want my name removed.
I would like to be on the list of things He doesn't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Phat, posted 06-11-2016 3:11 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by Phat, posted 06-11-2016 3:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 477 of 1444 (785861)
06-12-2016 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 476 by Phat
06-11-2016 3:41 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:
Would Him knowing you and/or everything about you take away your free will?
Well, that's the problem that's being discussed in this and countless other threads. Believers insist that there are rewards attached to a relationship with Him but the rewards always have strings attached. It's, "Do as I say and you'll be rewarded." Why would I want a relationship like that? If there was real free will, there would have to be an opt-out clause. I'll accept the natural consequences of my actions but you can keep the eternal damnation and the eternal reward.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by Phat, posted 06-11-2016 3:41 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by Phat, posted 06-13-2016 3:01 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 484 of 1444 (785913)
06-13-2016 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 478 by Phat
06-13-2016 3:01 AM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:
So tell Him that.
Don't you think He reads my posts?
Phat writes:
Lets just have a great communion today...in the present moment.
My free will says, "Let's not."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by Phat, posted 06-13-2016 3:01 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by Phat, posted 06-13-2016 4:19 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 569 by Phat, posted 08-22-2017 4:42 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 493 of 1444 (786186)
06-18-2016 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 492 by Diomedes
06-18-2016 12:09 PM


Diomedes writes:
Technically, omniscience and omnipotence are mutually distinct.
Wouldn't the power to find out everything be close to omnipotence? Is there really a distinction between being able to find out anything and already knowing everything?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by Diomedes, posted 06-18-2016 12:09 PM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 494 by Phat, posted 06-18-2016 3:23 PM ringo has replied
 Message 495 by Diomedes, posted 06-19-2016 11:16 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 496 of 1444 (786263)
06-19-2016 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 494 by Phat
06-18-2016 3:23 PM


Re: Riddle me this and Google me that!
Phat writes:
Nobody likes a know-it-all if the know-it-all uses their wisdom to belittle others.
Does that sound like Anybody you know?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 494 by Phat, posted 06-18-2016 3:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 497 by Phat, posted 06-23-2016 3:15 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 498 of 1444 (786569)
06-23-2016 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 497 by Phat
06-23-2016 3:15 AM


Re: Riddle me this and Google me that!
Doesn't, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God," sound like belittling to you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 497 by Phat, posted 06-23-2016 3:15 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 499 by Phat, posted 06-26-2016 4:32 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 500 of 1444 (786748)
06-26-2016 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 499 by Phat
06-26-2016 4:32 AM


Re: Riddle me this and Google me that!
Phat writes:
You want to have the same abilities as god has without having earned nor learned them..
On the contrary, I just want to be left alone to use the abilities I have as I see fit, without the threat of eternal damnation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by Phat, posted 06-26-2016 4:32 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 501 by Phat, posted 06-26-2016 4:08 PM ringo has replied

  
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