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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 502 of 1444 (786790)
06-27-2016 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 501 by Phat
06-26-2016 4:08 PM


Re: Riddle me this and Google me that!
Phat writes:
This whole idea of "wanting to be left alone" seems to me to be a common theme among the two categories that Theodoric brought up.
Wanting to be left alone is not the same as preferring that there was no God. I also want you gun-toting Americans to leave me alone. That doesn't mean I'd prefer that you didn't exist. I just want you to keep your violence away from me.
Phat writes:
Seems you have this irrational idea that even if god existed he would likely be mean and demanding...
It isn't my idea. I'm just going by your description.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by Phat, posted 06-26-2016 4:08 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 503 by Phat, posted 06-28-2016 10:44 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 506 of 1444 (786926)
06-29-2016 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 503 by Phat
06-28-2016 10:44 PM


Re: Riddle me this and Google me that!
Phat writes:
To assume that you have more wisdom at running your own life than a Creator of all seen and unseen...however....is hubris at best.
Why? If there was intelligent life in the universe even slightly more advanced that us, would you think they could determine our interests better than we can ourselves? They'd be more likely to exterminate us like Indians and take our resources.
Phat writes:
What makes you think that humans can get along better without GOD?
I just consider not being eternally incinerated "better". Call me crazy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 503 by Phat, posted 06-28-2016 10:44 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 507 by Phat, posted 06-29-2016 4:04 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 508 of 1444 (786989)
06-30-2016 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 507 by Phat
06-29-2016 4:04 PM


Re: Riddle me this and Google me that!
Phat writes:
The whole point of the Bible story is not that of a GOD who incinerates us.
Incinerates us, floods us, lets us be enslaved by the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Romans, and on and on. You seem to be snipping out a lot of the Bible to determine the "whole" point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 507 by Phat, posted 06-29-2016 4:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 509 by Phat, posted 07-01-2016 12:12 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 513 of 1444 (787059)
07-02-2016 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 509 by Phat
07-01-2016 12:12 AM


Re: Being Obedient Is Good For Everyone
Phat writes:
In each of the examples you mention, the people brought it upon themselves. They were either disobedient, worshiping idols, or flat out evil.
Floods, slavery, etc. are NOT the natural consequences of disobedience, idolatry, etc. They are artificial consequences imposed by your God, according to your Bible.
You wouldn't make such a silly argument to defend anybody but God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by Phat, posted 07-01-2016 12:12 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by Phat, posted 07-04-2016 4:25 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 517 of 1444 (787148)
07-05-2016 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by Phat
07-04-2016 4:25 PM


Re: Literary Character or Literal Chaacter?
Phat writes:
slavery is a natural consequence of idolatry...
In the Bible, God's Chosen people were enslaved because God actively chose not to protect them. You can teach your child a lesson by letting him burn his fingers on a hot stove, and you can call that a "natural" consequence of his own decision if you like. You can also call it negligence.
Phat writes:
One problem in these types of debates is in reference to god as simply a character in a book rather than an actual relationship in the mind and heart.
The problem is the discrepancies between the character in the book and the "buddy" in your heart and mind. Who would want the character in the book as a buddy? You cherry-pick the parts of the book that you like and ignore the rest. It's like having a relationship with Long John Silver in my heart and mind because he was a jovial storyteller - but ignoring the fact that he was also a bloodthirsty pirate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Phat, posted 07-04-2016 4:25 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 518 by Phat, posted 07-07-2016 6:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 525 of 1444 (787261)
07-08-2016 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 518 by Phat
07-07-2016 6:41 PM


Re: Literary Character or Literal Chaacter?
Phat writes:
It is my belief that you can only understand the character in the book through knowing the character outside of the book first.
Can you introduce me to Long John Silver so I can get to know him outside the book?
Phat writes:
People indict God based on the book yet don't even know God.
And people embrace God based on the book yet don't even know the book.
Phat writes:
... what of people who have claimed to have met "Him" who have yet never read the book?
What of the Buddhists and Hindus and Muslims who have read other books and claim to have "met" other gods?
I have no problem with your belief in God - but either it's based on the Bible or it isn't. You can't just cherry-pick parts of the Bible that you like and expect people to take your picks seriously.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by Phat, posted 07-07-2016 6:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 563 of 1444 (814500)
07-10-2017 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 560 by Phat
07-10-2017 11:38 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:
How could GOD conceivably not have foreknowledge?
Omniscience and omnipotence are made-up qualities, like Rumpelstiltskin's ability to spin straw into gold. It has no connection with reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 560 by Phat, posted 07-10-2017 11:38 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 564 by Phat, posted 07-10-2017 12:33 PM ringo has replied
 Message 572 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 1:58 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 565 of 1444 (814505)
07-10-2017 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 564 by Phat
07-10-2017 12:33 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:
I wish you would hypothesize with me now and then.
I AM hypothesising with you when I point out that your hypothesis makes no sense. In fact, it isn't even a real hypothesis at all since you resolutely refuse to test it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 564 by Phat, posted 07-10-2017 12:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 571 of 1444 (817995)
08-22-2017 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by Phat
08-22-2017 4:42 AM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:
jar is, of course, the one at EvC responsible for your enlightened thinking.
I wouldn't necessarily say that. I'd say that jar's viewpoint has helped me to express mine more clearly.
Phat writes:
... I don't like his interpretation of Christianity. The whole Matthew 25 we are responsible schtick, because people don't even have to believe anything anymore. they simply have to do unto the least.
So why don't you have any argument against it, other than that you don't like it?
Phat writes:
What was He?
I think He was a fictional character, probably based on an amalgamation of itinerant preachers, much like Elmer Gantry.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
I'd start by saying that "in the beginning was the word" has nothing to do with Jesus.
So tell me what you think it means.
It's obviously figurative. "The word became flesh" ought to be a clue to that. It would be hard to tell everything the author(s) meant by it without a thorough study - and I haven't done that. It seems safe to say though that Jesus wasn't literally a word.
Phat writes:
So for you God is an unnecessary fiction in our minds and you feel it worthwhile to challenge religious minds with secular common sense.
Yes.
Incidentally, is "secular common sense" different from any other kind of common sense?
Phat writes:
So in your opinion, what does the author of john mean?
There's no easy answer to that. It would require a line-by-line study and I don't feel much inclined to do that. It might be more productive for you to try to understand whether the doctrines you have been spoon-fed make any sense.
Phat writes:
And why should I accept your definition when over 75% of the commentators, (yes, they have read the Bible, jar ) explain it differently?
Those commentators have an axe to grind. I don't. But I couldn't care less what you accept. I'd rather have you figure it out for yourself.
Phat writes:
Some of us want to replace God with ourselves
If there was a God, we wouldn't have to replace Him. As it is, he isn't feeding the hungry, etc. so we have no choice but to do it ourselves.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
How can you learn anything if you don't get a chance to change your behaviour?
What do you mean by chance? I have issues with that word....
Where's the ambiguity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by Phat, posted 08-22-2017 4:42 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 573 of 1444 (842968)
11-11-2018 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 572 by Phat
11-11-2018 1:58 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:
You have to give the concept of Belief more credit.
No. I really don't.
Phat writes:
... I would argue that no solid case as been made falsifying the belief.
As I said, we don't need negative evidence. All we need is lack of positive evidence.
Phat writes:
I would also again ask why you keep grinding this axe that you claim not to be grinding.
I have no axe to grind. Almost everybody I know is religious. My life would be a lot easier if I believed the nonsense that you believe.
Phat writes:
What you need to do is to consider belief as a viable option.
No. I don't.
Phat writes:
What is frustrating is that you took the trademark---one message among many---and threw out other messages plus the whole point of the stories in general...which is Christ.
No, Christ is not the point. The message is the point. And you're the one who throws out the parts of the message that you don't like.
Phat writes:
Or are you going to challenge the assumption that Jesus Christ is the central message of the NT?
Of course I am. The messenger is not the message. The map is not the territory.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 572 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 1:58 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 574 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:15 PM ringo has replied
 Message 575 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:18 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 576 of 1444 (842981)
11-11-2018 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 574 by Phat
11-11-2018 2:15 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:
... what is the central message of the NT?
quote:
Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Old Testament too.
Phat writes:
Can what is written support your assertion...
See above.
Phat writes:
...apart from your beloved Matthew 25?
The question is: Why is Matthew 25 so behated by you?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 578 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:42 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 577 of 1444 (842983)
11-11-2018 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 575 by Phat
11-11-2018 2:18 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:
Out of curiosity, do you ever argue(or discuss these things) with them?
No. They probably would call themselves "fundamentalists" but they're not as crazy as American fundamentalists.
Phat writes:
Also...do you respect any of them for what they do apart from their religion?
They're not very different from me, except that they talk matter-of-factly about Jesus being real - and I try not to laugh too overtly.
Phat writes:
Would you honestly think they would be better off without the religion?
Hard to say.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 575 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:18 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 579 of 1444 (842987)
11-11-2018 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 578 by Phat
11-11-2018 2:42 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:
...though I don't see the Goats as being Christians nor do I see the message suggesting global inclusivism.
You don't want to see Christians as goats. You don't want to give up your exclusive get-out-of-hell-free club.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 578 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:42 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 580 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:55 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 581 of 1444 (842993)
11-11-2018 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 580 by Phat
11-11-2018 2:55 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:
I could argue that you want a right to be left alone and get to smoke in your own house should you want to. That's a bad thing.
Why?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:55 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 582 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 3:00 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 583 of 1444 (842996)
11-11-2018 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 582 by Phat
11-11-2018 3:00 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:
Because smoking shortens your life.
Smoking might shorten my life. A lot of things might shorten my life. Why should somebody else get to pick and choose which ones I can do?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 582 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 3:00 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 584 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 3:07 PM ringo has replied

  
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