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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 585 of 1444 (843000)
11-11-2018 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 584 by Phat
11-11-2018 3:07 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:
Did you ever listen to your Father when you lived under his roof, or did you do what you wanted even back then?
Like most children, I got away with as much as I could.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 3:07 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 586 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 3:20 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 598 of 1444 (843049)
11-12-2018 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 594 by Phat
11-12-2018 3:45 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
Belief can be comforting in times of crises. Belief in a God of unlimited power helps us to deal with our own times of powerlessness.
Belief can also be a powerful tool for the ones who are causing the crisis: "Don't think about the Church being made of solid gold while you have nothing to eat; some day, you'll have a solid gold mansion in heaven."

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 594 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 3:45 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 599 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 10:52 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 600 of 1444 (843052)
11-12-2018 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 599 by Phat
11-12-2018 10:52 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
It would just be an alien overlord playing mind games with Himself.
Or worse, an alien overlord playing mind games with believers. Or more likely, just believers playing mind games with themselves.
Phat writes:
God created the possibility that you would never be His friend but did not know until the point when you chose it.
If there was ever anything that He didn't know, He can't be omniscient. I don't see any way to tap-dance around that.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 10:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 603 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 3:43 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 613 of 1444 (843105)
11-13-2018 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 603 by Phat
11-12-2018 3:43 PM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
How does that remove your free will?
I didn't say it removes free will. I said you can't have both omniscience and free will. By trying to give us free will, you're diminishing God's knowledge and power.
Phat writes:
The only thing you can't decide is something He cant know. Which means that you can only decide something He knows. To which I say boo hoo. You still had free will.
No, our free will doesn't depend on God's lack of omniscience. Our free will depends on what God will do to us if we don't do HIS will. It doesn't matter whether He knows beforehand what we're going to do. Whatever we "choose", He does HIS will.
That isn't free will for us. Heaven or Hell is not a reasonable choice.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 603 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 3:43 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 615 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 10:46 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 614 of 1444 (843107)
11-13-2018 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 605 by Phat
11-12-2018 11:52 PM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
Ringo seems to think that any future evil that God knows about He should stop...but this brings a whole hypothetical controlled and contrived world into play...
What's so bad about a world without earthquakes, tsunamis, forest fires, etc.? What's so bad about a world in which a man who is about to do a mass shooting is struck by lightning? I could live with a God who exerted that kind of useful control.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 11:52 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 616 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 10:49 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 617 of 1444 (843111)
11-13-2018 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 615 by Phat
11-13-2018 10:46 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
To you, free will means being freely out from under the control of the overlord's destiny.
And to you, free will means having compleeeeeeete freedom to choose milk chocolate or dark chocolate or white chocolate - and you ignore the threat that you'll be tortured eternally for choosing vanilla.
Phat writes:
In other words, you should have the right to choose whatever you want without being bound by the preconditions of destiny.
Why should there be any "preconditions of destiny"?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 10:46 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 619 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 10:59 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 618 of 1444 (843112)
11-13-2018 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 616 by Phat
11-13-2018 10:49 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
Will The Real God Please Explain Himself?
I predict that he won't. But apologists will continue with their clumsy attempts.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 10:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 620 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 11:01 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 622 of 1444 (843117)
11-13-2018 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 619 by Phat
11-13-2018 10:59 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
If we substitute the word "reality" for God, does it sound as bad to suggest that reality "knows" all destiny?
The whole idea of "destiny" is an excuse more than anything else.
Phat writes:
Perhaps you think that hell is an unnecessary precondition.
Of course it's unnecessary.
Phat writes:
Reality itself may impose preconditions on your carnal fest.
Reality doesn't impose preconditions. It imposes consequences.
Phat writes:
Perhaps choosing vanilla has unforeseen consequences down the road...
Then let the consequences fall where they may - but we don't need a God to impose additional arbitrary consequences of His own.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 10:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 627 of 1444 (843124)
11-13-2018 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 620 by Phat
11-13-2018 11:01 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
and atheists will continue to use evidence to predict an uncertain future. God forbid they ever dare believe anything without evidence.
Belief isn't "daring". It should be nothing more than a backup for when there is no evidence. But more often than not, it's just wishful thinking.
Phat writes:
Why have hope? Wait for the evidence.
It makes more sense to put your hope in something real.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 11:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 638 of 1444 (846607)
01-09-2019 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 637 by Phat
01-09-2019 3:50 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
Cause a change of mind? Nope...free will + evidence that shows that people don't get stopped.
God switched Pharaoh's mind back and forth like a TV remote.
Phat writes:
Lightning Bolt? Evidence shows rare examples of intervention, but arguably it was random anyway.
Sodom and Gomorrah. It definitely can be done.
Phat writes:
Give foreknowledge to police? Well they have used psychics before, but thats other spirits anyway
Why bother? If God has ANY power, why wouldn't He use it? Why use a middleman?
Phat writes:
IF God existed, what demand would or should humanity place on His responsibility of office?
If He would do ANYTHING useful, just anything at all, that would be nice.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 637 by Phat, posted 01-09-2019 3:50 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 639 by Phat, posted 01-09-2019 4:14 PM ringo has replied
 Message 640 by Phat, posted 01-09-2019 4:22 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 641 of 1444 (846611)
01-09-2019 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 639 by Phat
01-09-2019 4:14 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
Like you say, the evidence shows that we have to do it.
That isn't what I said. I gave the examples of God messing with Pharaoh's head and genociding Sodom and Gomorrah. I said that it would be nice if He did something useful instead.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 639 by Phat, posted 01-09-2019 4:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 642 by Phat, posted 01-09-2019 4:28 PM ringo has replied
 Message 644 by Phat, posted 01-09-2019 4:35 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 645 of 1444 (846632)
01-09-2019 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 644 by Phat
01-09-2019 4:35 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
God may have been stimulating Pharoahs conscience.
You have it backwards. God hardened Pharaoh's heart - i.e. He deliberately interfered with Pharaoh's natural conscience. At best, that was counter- productive. At worst, it was downright malicious.
Phat writes:
As for Sodom, they made their own bed. Volcanos happen.
That's incoherent.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by Phat, posted 01-09-2019 4:35 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 648 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 5:07 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 646 of 1444 (846634)
01-09-2019 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 643 by Phat
01-09-2019 4:32 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
Him being wrong doesn't change anything.
Of course it does. If He's wrong, you shouldn't be following Him.
Phat writes:
It may well be a choice of yours down the road.
Nope. I have never chosen to go to Hell and I never will.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 643 by Phat, posted 01-09-2019 4:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 810 by Phat, posted 02-24-2019 4:24 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 647 of 1444 (846636)
01-09-2019 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 642 by Phat
01-09-2019 4:28 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
This whole attitude that humans are capable of or expected to prod God into action is just silly.
It's in the Bible.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 642 by Phat, posted 01-09-2019 4:28 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 649 of 1444 (846641)
01-09-2019 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 648 by Faith
01-09-2019 5:07 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Faith writes:
We cannot contradict God and God cannot contradict us because all our power to do anything at all comes directly from Him.
If everything I do comes from God, why are you trying to argue with me?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 5:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 650 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 5:13 PM ringo has replied
 Message 657 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:09 AM ringo has replied

  
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