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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 651 of 1444 (846646)
01-09-2019 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 650 by Faith
01-09-2019 5:13 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Faith writes:
Yup, here we go.
So no response. Never anything from you but empty opinions and hate.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 650 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 5:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 656 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:07 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 658 of 1444 (846685)
01-10-2019 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 640 by Phat
01-09-2019 4:22 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
One could argue that He gave us the power and expects us to develop it.
But He didn't give us the power to stop a mass shooting, etc. If He has the power to stop it, why doesn't He use it?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by Phat, posted 01-09-2019 4:22 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 668 by Phat, posted 01-10-2019 2:51 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 659 of 1444 (846686)
01-10-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 656 by Faith
01-10-2019 9:07 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Faith writes:
I do hate stupidity, yes.
Self-loathing is a common fundamentalist trait.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 656 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:07 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 661 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 10:43 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 660 of 1444 (846688)
01-10-2019 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 657 by Faith
01-10-2019 9:09 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Faith writes:
That comes from God too of course, the power to do it anyway. Nothing at all happens without Him.
So He's just tripping over His own feet.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:09 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 662 of 1444 (846693)
01-10-2019 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 661 by Faith
01-10-2019 10:43 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Faith writes:
Why on earth do you think such silly crapola is cute?
Since you're wrong about practically everything, I'll take that as a compliment.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 10:43 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 669 of 1444 (846712)
01-10-2019 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 668 by Phat
01-10-2019 2:51 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
If you or I were the only people at an event with money, it would not necessarily mean that we had a responsibility to use it on others.
Yes it would. Jesus said so. We've been through this before.
Phat writes:
Besides...the bottom line is that God and only God decides such matters.
That makes Him evil.
Phat writes:
Perhaps God has better reasons why NOT to help.
That's your favorite copout. But you don't have all of the facts either. You're just making excuses for your pathetic god.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by Phat, posted 01-10-2019 2:51 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 678 of 1444 (846754)
01-11-2019 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 677 by Phat
01-11-2019 3:13 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Phat writes:
Lets say there was no hell. Never. Lets also assume that there was the hypothetical rebellion in Heaven.
No. Let's not. I'm not interested in conclusions drawn from made-up assumptions. Let's stick to reality.
Phat writes:
The point is, what type of a place would such a heaven be like? It would be like anarchy at work, where some folks decided they didn't want to work as a team and sought to make their own hours and rules.
Seriously, don't you see how stupid that sounds? God is such a weakling that He doesn't even rule in Heaven? Come on. Stop wasting my time with that tripe.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 677 by Phat, posted 01-11-2019 3:13 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 679 by Phat, posted 01-11-2019 10:43 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 680 of 1444 (846756)
01-11-2019 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 679 by Phat
01-11-2019 10:43 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Phat writes:
Im going off of your assumptions that hell makes no sense.
My "assumption" is a conclusion based on your ideas about hell. The puny "god" that you describe makes no sense.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 679 by Phat, posted 01-11-2019 10:43 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 681 by Phat, posted 01-11-2019 11:19 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 683 of 1444 (846760)
01-11-2019 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 681 by Phat
01-11-2019 11:19 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Phat writes:
No punier than a God who needs correction from humans. And which you and jar claim is Biblical.
It is in the Bible. Do you seriously dispute that?
Phat writes:
Why have not the apologists mentioned this anomaly in the stories?
Why don't bank robbers get real jobs? That's not their agenda.
Phat writes:
Oh, that's right...you think they are all in cahoots to sell snake oil.
If you have apologetics to defend the lies that apologists tell, why don't you explain?
quote:
Apologetics (from Greek ἀ, "speaking in defense") is the religious discipline of defending religious doctrines through systematic argumentation and discourse. link
quote:
Propaganda is information that is not objective and is used primarily to influence an audience and further an agenda, often by presenting facts selectively to encourage a particular synthesis or perception, or using loaded language to produce an emotional rather than a rational response to the information that is presented. link

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 681 by Phat, posted 01-11-2019 11:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 684 by Phat, posted 01-11-2019 3:35 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 693 of 1444 (846823)
01-12-2019 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 684 by Phat
01-11-2019 3:35 PM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Phat writes:
Are you saying that objective information by definition will likely not defend a belief?
Yes. We've been through this many times. Belief is for when you don't have any objective evidence. If you have objective evidence, there's no place for belief.
Phat writes:
This irritates me because you have reframed the issue making objectivity the default value.
There's no reframing. Objectivity has always been the default.
Phat writes:
Now, this is not a problem unless objectivity is atheistic or secular humanist in nature, whereupon I would claim bias and propaganda on that end of the spectrum.
Objectivity is objective in nature. Atheism may be the conclusion from the objective facts but not necessarily so. Belief can not be the objective conclusion.
Phat writes:
... you seemingly use a tactic of switching back and forth from neutral objectivity to quoting the Bible when it suits you.
That's because you're wrong on both counts. The Bible is the only source for your Jesus, yet you reject what it says about Him - i.e. your theology is a figment of your own imagination (and the imaginations of the apologists that you so admire). And even if you did accept your own source, it's often wrong.
Phat writes:
For instance, you will claim that Jesus told us to do it or ask Jesus.
I don't "claim" that Jesus told "us". I quote what Jesus told you. If you believe that He existed, you are the one who should be doing what He said.
Phat writes:
Don't you realize how hard on the head this flip flop becomes?
It may be hard on your head. Not mine.
Phat writes:
Its almost as if you are more concerned with simply winning a debate than you are for persuading me that your argument is sound.
I'm not concerned with persuading you about anything.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 684 by Phat, posted 01-11-2019 3:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 694 of 1444 (846824)
01-12-2019 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 686 by Phat
01-11-2019 4:17 PM


Re: Flickering Christians?
Phat writes:
Some of us claim to know. It is your job to request that we prove it.
I've done that many times. I should be getting overtime.
Phat writes:
I have a higher regard for my belief than I have for the need for evidence.
That's dishonest. Would you let some guy into your house to "read the meter" without ID? You require evidence in every context but one.
Phat writes:
One need not prove the obvious to me.
When you can't explain something, how "obvious" can it really be?
Phat writes:
I conclude that you simply accepted the evidence you found. I have found much of that same evidence and have rejected it.
What right do you have to reject evidence?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 686 by Phat, posted 01-11-2019 4:17 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 695 by Phat, posted 01-12-2019 12:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 696 of 1444 (846834)
01-12-2019 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 695 by Phat
01-12-2019 12:31 PM


Re: Flickering Christians?
Phat writes:
if evidence conflicts with other evidence i reject both temporarily. I need further verofication.
So give us some examples of two lines of evidence that you have decided were in conflict and explain how and why you chose one over the other. Remember that the context here is whether or not God exists.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 695 by Phat, posted 01-12-2019 12:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 698 of 1444 (846843)
01-12-2019 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 697 by Faith
01-12-2019 1:57 PM


Re: Flickering Christians?
Faith writes:
... it would be really nice if you'd all stop imputing thinking problems to believers....
It isn't just a matter of "imputing". It's a matter of pointing out in detail what the thinking problems are - and you being unable to refute the clear conclusion.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by Faith, posted 01-12-2019 1:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 714 of 1444 (848591)
02-11-2019 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 712 by Phat
02-11-2019 11:47 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
The Deity makes the movie using ad lib actions by the characters in the script. We are co-authoring the movie with the Deitys supervision.
Alfred Hitchcock was an omniscient director. John Ford was not.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 712 by Phat, posted 02-11-2019 11:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 726 of 1444 (848625)
02-12-2019 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 725 by Phat
02-12-2019 10:13 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
God, if God exists is more complex than can be described in a book.
Why? Why could He not be less complex? After all, the people who wrote the book were awed by things they didn't understand. What if those things were just done by extraterrestrial technology, a few steps above ours? Even IF those events really happened, why would the writers not exaggerate the powers required?
Phat writes:
if God could prevent every evil malady that nature throws at our species, the result would be a reality totally unlike the one we now inhabit.
Yes. Every second of human history has been humans trying to do that. It's definitely what we want. We're making the improvements that God can't (not omniscient) or won't (evil) make for us.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 725 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 10:13 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 727 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 11:31 AM ringo has replied

  
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