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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 60 of 1444 (762742)
07-15-2015 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Phat
07-15-2015 5:27 AM


Re: Free Will Remix
Phat writes:
Comments?
Yes. If your opening premise is absurd, more absurdities will follow.
btw, what was the answer to how many angels on that pinhead?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 07-15-2015 5:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 213 of 1444 (763534)
07-26-2015 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by NoNukes
07-26-2015 2:32 PM


^^^ it's the same with all these God discussions - they're all silly 'angels on pinhead' logic that can only resolve to 'well this is what I made up and now believe'. Pointless.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by NoNukes, posted 07-26-2015 2:32 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 07-26-2015 7:16 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 230 by Stile, posted 07-27-2015 1:26 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 218 of 1444 (763609)
07-27-2015 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Phat
07-26-2015 7:16 PM


Re: Not Everything can be explained by Evidence.
Phat writes:
You are a perfect reason why I believe free will trumps omniscience. It would not be logical for God to create you foreknowing you to not believe. God loves Tangle as much as he loves Mother Theresa.
And this is a pefect example of making something up and then believing it because it fits a need. It's a self-deluding spiral. God does not love me or you and especially not Mother Teresa. If he exists at all, he shows no interest in any of us - that much is at least evidenced.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 07-26-2015 7:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 239 of 1444 (765368)
07-28-2015 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Faith
07-27-2015 8:17 PM


Re: time and eternity
Faith writes:
First requirement is "Believe."
And those four words explain how the power holders in 'religious' organisations have manipulated and exploited the gullible for thousands of years.
Halleluja!

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 07-27-2015 8:17 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 240 of 1444 (765369)
07-28-2015 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Phat
07-28-2015 1:41 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
Personally I think that what annoys many people is the whole idea that they can never decide to do something apart from what God knows.
Tough.
No Phat, what REALLY annoys people is seemingly clever people assuming a God, assuming his powers, assuming free will then wondering why the resultant paradoxes can't be resolved.
Give us a break.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Phat, posted 07-28-2015 1:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 258 of 1444 (765428)
07-29-2015 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
07-28-2015 11:50 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Faith writes:
God, however, has given us a way out: Believe that God sent Christ to die for our sins in our place and give yourself to Him. That's it. Do that and you escape Hell.
Which of course condemns billions to hell; all those prior to Christianity and all those after who had the temerity to be born in places that have different beliefs. All for no fault of their own.
What a load of utter bullshit. How modern people can think like this is totally beyond me, we have a long way to go before we'll put all thes primitive superstitions behind us and get on with the job of improving people's lives.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 11:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 07-29-2015 7:46 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 261 of 1444 (765432)
07-29-2015 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
07-29-2015 7:46 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Faith writes:
Boy are you going to be surprised.
This is, of course, believer's smugness. We'll be exactly the same Faith - dead.
ABE: Christ came for the entire world and most of the world has heard of Him by now. There are millions of Christians in China for instance.
Right, so the billions that had never heard of him can rot in hell and the billions to come who are born into different faiths can do the same. Thank god you're not a representative Christian, those opinions are quite disgraceful.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 07-29-2015 7:46 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 289 of 1444 (765505)
07-30-2015 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by MrHambre
07-30-2015 9:37 AM


Re: Rant In One Hand
MrH writes:
what we already believe defines what we accept as evidence.
Still more nonsense. Where is all this tripe coming from? It seems that you like to believe anything that sounds contrary without providing any support for it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by MrHambre, posted 07-30-2015 9:37 AM MrHambre has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 346 of 1444 (770106)
09-29-2015 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Phat
09-29-2015 2:09 AM


Re: Flickering Christians?
Phat writes:
I tend to believe that of one actually lost their faith they never had it to begin with.
Of course you do, but you're wrong.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Phat, posted 09-29-2015 2:09 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Phat, posted 11-26-2015 3:09 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 349 of 1444 (773210)
11-26-2015 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Phat
11-26-2015 3:09 PM


Re: My Friend Flicka
Phat writes:
Oh? Explain to me the time you once had faith---and what it was that you had it in?
I had faith until I was about 14. Swallowed the thing whole, believed every word. Gradually over a year or so it became blindingly obvious that it was just another made up thing of grow-ups, like Father Christmas.
If you think about it for just a minute, Europe was a Christian country, the vast majority of atheists will have been born into Christian families and brought up as Christian. They had a faith and lost it.
These days it's a little different, there are a large number of atheists bringing up children without being hamstrung by superstition so they didn't have a faith to lose.
And, btw, 'losing' is a believers concept - there's nothing to be lost.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Phat, posted 11-26-2015 3:09 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Phat, posted 11-26-2015 5:08 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 352 of 1444 (773238)
11-27-2015 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by Phat
11-26-2015 5:08 PM


Re: My Friend Flicka
Phat writes:
In some cases evidence is internal.
That's not evidence for anything except personal delusion. It's purely subjective. Your beliefs can be 'seen' using magnetic resonace imaging of your brain - that's evidence of your belief. It's absolutely no evidence that what you believe is true.
It is to us more than simply an idea---nor a made up one.
I don't doubt it. I thought exactly the same about Father Christmas as I did about Jesus - both were very real. I spoke to Jesus and I left a wish list and a carrot out for Father Christmas. Unlike Jesus though there was actual evidence of Father Christmas. I asked him for a train set and he gave me one. Rudolf eat the carrot and FC left sooty footprints. When I asked Jesus to cure the deformed legs of my friend with polio, nothing happenened.
Then I grew up.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Phat, posted 11-26-2015 5:08 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Phat, posted 11-27-2015 11:29 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 358 of 1444 (773255)
11-27-2015 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by Phat
11-27-2015 11:29 AM


Re: Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave...
Phat writes:
I maintain that "growing up" does not eliminate the need for spirituality
What is this 'need' for spirituality? I don't have one and I don't even know what it means.
nor does it imply that belief in Jesus Christ--alive eternally and in communion eternally with humanity---is a bad and destructive mindset.
It's not necessarily bad - so long as by 'bad' you mean harmful. I don't think it's more harmful than believing in Father Christmas. It's just childish - which can be a problem if it continues into adulthood. Though most everyday believers seem to function ok. If it gets literal and becomes dogmatic it does start getting dangerous.
In Line with this topic, you may urge readers to utilize free will and gain knowledge while discarding superstition.
There ain't no such thing as free will. We've been over this. It just another daft religious construct. If you want to use it in my hearing, replace it with 'rational choice' - though this too is bounded.
In your mind, all religious beliefs are superstitious.
Of course. I assume you think the same of, I dunno, ancestor worship.
As for Lewis Carol, his writings are regarded as one of the best examples of nonsense literature.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Phat, posted 11-27-2015 11:29 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 369 of 1444 (775712)
01-04-2016 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by Phat
01-04-2016 10:39 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phat writes:
What does the evidence show?
The evidence shows that crime has fallen steadily and sharply throughout the centuries. We are, in fact, "living in the most peaceful time of human existence."
I dont see us getting any wiser--only more confused as we try to be gods instead of submitting to the Creator of all seen and unseen...which some say is antiquated thinking.
Then you're not looking in the right places - a classic case of seeing what you want to see. I suggest you read Stephen Pinker. Here's a Ted talk he did, which should be required viewing.
Steven Pinker: The surprising decline in violence | TED Talk

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Phat, posted 01-04-2016 10:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 416 of 1444 (782644)
04-27-2016 2:05 AM


Its seems to me that there's a big difference bewteen knowledge of the future and whether the future has been determined. Knowing the future means you see what happened from a future perspective, like looking backward out of a car window. From that perspective its only the past that is determined. Bill always chooses red because that is in fact what happened regardless of possible interventions. He can't choose any other colour because red is what you saw him choose.
As was argued months ago, if you add probability and true randomness to your universe you can have indeterminate or at least probablistic outcomes but still know what happened.
You know that Bill chose red because that's what you saw him do from the future, the fact that he tossed a coin to choose - so the outcome at that point could not be predicted - doesn't affect the fact that from the perspective of the future, you know he chose red.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 462 of 1444 (784999)
05-27-2016 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 461 by Phat
05-27-2016 2:13 AM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:
Does this make sense?
No. It's a mixture of religious fantasy and gibberish.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Phat, posted 05-27-2016 2:13 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by Phat, posted 05-27-2016 2:57 AM Tangle has replied

  
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