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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 464 of 1444 (785002)
05-27-2016 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 463 by Phat
05-27-2016 2:57 AM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:
yet arguably you would consider anything religious to in fact be fantasy...thus you can be said to be biased.
I am definitely biased - I have a position based on rationality and evidence. But that means I'm capable of changing my mind with a change in evidence. If you could bring something to the debate that isn't pure fantasy, poor philosophy and religious dreaming it might make a bit more sense to me.
Depends on who is doing the determining.
It can't matter at all to the concept.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by Phat, posted 05-27-2016 2:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 467 of 1444 (785094)
05-27-2016 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Phat
05-27-2016 4:05 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:
I'm more interested in my own conduct and behavior rather than worrying if I get voodooed or not.
So give up the voodoo, you'd make a decent human being if you didn't waste so much of your time, effort and mindspace worrying about stuff that even it exists you couldn't begin to understand.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Phat, posted 05-27-2016 4:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 516 of 1444 (787131)
07-04-2016 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by Phat
07-04-2016 4:25 PM


Re: Literary Character or Literal Chaacter?
Phat writes:
One problem in these types of debates is in reference to god as simply a character in a book rather than an actual relationship in the mind and heart. It is rather difficult to arrive at any sort of consensus when the character is a creation of humanity in the belief of some, while an actual presence in the belief of others.
I think you have it here.
Why is Jesus Christ in your heart and mind but not mine?
I think you need to think really hard about that. Why you but not me? I am, after all an equal member of his creation. Up until the age of about 13 God spoke to me too. He was as real as a jam sandwich. Then he wasn't. So now I'm apparently on my way to hell for no fault of my own.
How does that work Phat? Why some people but not others? Why no Hindus or Muslims? Why just you?
Does that seem fair? Moral?
And please don't give me any of that 'we can't judge god' shit. We can and we do because he gave us the capacity to do exaclty that, otherwise we could not tell right from wrong.
How do you explain it Phat? And no biblical bullshit please.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Phat, posted 07-04-2016 4:25 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 519 by Phat, posted 07-07-2016 6:48 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 521 by Faith, posted 07-07-2016 7:39 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 520 of 1444 (787227)
07-07-2016 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 519 by Phat
07-07-2016 6:48 PM


Re: Literary Character or Literal Chaacter?
Phat writes:
I may well ask why you never allowed your belief to over ride evidence or lack thereof.
You're not getting it Phat. I did believe - heart and soul, the whole 10 yards. Then suddenly realised it was a pile of horse manure from top to bottom. Anti-road to Damascas moment.
Now why would God do that if it meant my damnation?
Thus your question stands...why some and not others?
So what is your answer? I have one, do you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by Phat, posted 07-07-2016 6:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 522 by Faith, posted 07-07-2016 10:11 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 1436 by Phat, posted 08-10-2023 11:05 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 523 of 1444 (787251)
07-08-2016 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 521 by Faith
07-07-2016 7:39 PM


Re: God's unfair election
Faith writes:
It might help to have some biblical theology on the subject.
Like I said, that's the last thing that will help. Forget the biblical rationalisations, I'm interested in how you reconcile it personally. If the only way you can do it is to quote chunks of fiction that have been written specifically to avoid the problem, then you've failed.
quote:
Plenty of Hindus and Muslims have become Christians. They don't stay Hindus and Muslims of course, they convert to Christ.
That is not the point of course. Lots of Christians also covert to Islam. No, the question is why is it that no peasants in remote villages in the Atlas mountains ever spontaneously become Christians. Why does it take a visit from a Christian to happen? The answer is obvious and it's got nothing to do with your god.
Biblically we're ALL going to hell on our own merits, and any who are saved are saved completely by God's merciful choice
Which is the point I'm making. This god of yours is a monster. Just as well he's fictional.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 521 by Faith, posted 07-07-2016 7:39 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 524 of 1444 (787252)
07-08-2016 5:19 AM
Reply to: Message 522 by Faith
07-07-2016 10:11 PM


Re: Literary Character or Literal Chaacter?
Faith writes:
YOU made that decision and are blaming it on God. It's a mistake to treat God's sovereign will as on the same level as our own wills but that's what you are doing.
You're entirely missing the point. I made no decision, it just happened. I got to the age where it made no sense anymore. One day you believe in father Christmas, the next You don't. Now of course, like father christmas, it was the original belief that was in error so it all makes sense. But from a believer's point of view it makes no sense at all for a belief to just fall away.
A bruised reed doesn't shake its fist at God. nor a contrite heart. Meekness is the opposite of accusing God, and the brokenhearted don't rail against Him. Do you mourn your own sins, do you mourn the sinfulness of the world? These are the attitudes of the saved.
These are the attitudes of the deluded and the words of pious rationalisations. 'Mourning my own sins' - what a pile of nonsense. The late Christopher Hitchens used to say that god creates people sick then commands them to be well. People like you simply can't see the internal contradictions and have to make up all these crazy self-flagelating metaphors. It's a strange thing to watch.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 522 by Faith, posted 07-07-2016 10:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 557 of 1444 (795229)
12-09-2016 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 555 by Phat
12-08-2016 7:00 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
When I ask him about some of what we discuss, his response is that the people whom i talk with are not believers.
You understand that this is tautology? 'You have to be a believer of the things I believe to believe them'. It's the 'no true Scotsman' error. He's just asserting that he knows and others don't.
He's a charlatan. You're twisting yourself into knots trying to explain the inexplicable, simply because what you want to say doesn't make objective sense. As an outsider, it sounds like preachy gobbledegook.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 555 by Phat, posted 12-08-2016 7:00 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 558 by Phat, posted 12-09-2016 6:51 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 559 of 1444 (795271)
12-10-2016 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 558 by Phat
12-09-2016 6:51 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
None of you know my Pastor. I assure you he helps people more than most Christians do. He feeds the hungry, shelters,encourages, etc etc...all the works gospel of Matthew 25. He does it for free, too. The man is not paid much except in his secular job.
Well good for him. No doubt he's a really nice guy. He's still wrong.
You attack him based only on the idea that he accepts belief over evidence. I too go with belief because i reject the wisdom of this world.
We attack him because he apparently made a really stupid remark.
You go with evidence because you basically believe in human wisdom more than belief. I have seen enough subjective evidence myself.
I go with evidence because it works. Belief is useless as a way of establishing what is correct. For example, you know that Muslims and Jews are incorrect despite their beliefs and because of yours.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 558 by Phat, posted 12-09-2016 6:51 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 591 of 1444 (843036)
11-12-2018 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 590 by Phat
11-11-2018 5:42 PM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
He couldn't very well give us free will without not knowing at some point. All of these armchair discussions are hypothetical. Did God foreknow that Lucifer would turn against Him? Is ringo correct in that Satan is metaphorical and represents our own desire to be free from constraint? Or is it possible that God, being omnipresent within time, can know a decision made by others without actually being responsible for that decision? In other words, just because He knows what I will choose does not mean I didnt freely choose it---it only means that I cant ever choose apart from how I choose. Does that make any sense?
Don't you think that all this is as nonsensical as arguing over the number angels that can fit on a pin head?
I mean you even said it yourself All of these armchair discussions are hypothetical. But they're not even hypothetical they're simply ludicrous. What colour is a leprechaun's coat?
You have your all powerful all knowing 'god' creating a devil and not being able to do anything about it, then creating people that he knows will have to finish up in his hell. Just how can you believe any of this silly, silly, childish rubbish? It beats me.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 590 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 5:42 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 592 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 2:50 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 593 of 1444 (843038)
11-12-2018 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 592 by Phat
11-12-2018 2:50 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
Arguing over the angels is a simple discussion about the size of angels relative to the size of a given pin.
Yes, utterly stupid isn't it?
But This discussion focuses more on the characters we imagine and the possible attributes of said characters.
Well at least you're agreeing that the characters are imaginary.
You act as if imagination is a childish thing and that adults should discuss more mundane aspects of reality. Relax a little!
It *is* childish fot adults to talk about imaginary things as if they are real.
What's mundane about reality?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 592 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 2:50 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 594 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 3:45 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 595 of 1444 (843042)
11-12-2018 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 594 by Phat
11-12-2018 3:45 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
It has limitations. It can be depressing at times
Reality - ie life - can be both mundane and depressing? Well yes, along with all the other things it can be, like painful, annoying exhilarating, joyous, wonderous, happy etc etc.
And we make stories up about all these things to entertain us. What we don't do is believe them to be real.
Think of what you might feel if you were placed in the situation of these people
I'd feel lied to by everybody. And the final lie is that Allah wiil save them. He won't. The only thing that can save them are our institutions. If we spent as much money and placed as much belief and effort in democratic institutions as we do in wishfull thinking tosh, we'd make far more progress.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 594 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 3:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 601 of 1444 (843054)
11-12-2018 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 599 by Phat
11-12-2018 10:52 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
To further elaborate...God created the possibility that you would never be His friend but did not know until the point when you chose it. Given that He exists eternally, His foreknowing would be tied inexorably with your decision at a given point in time.
He's either all knowing or he ain't.
If he ain't, then he ain't omnicient and if he knew that he couldn't know what would happen but did it anyway, then he's just reckless. If he's reckless - ie doing something without care for the outcome - he aint all loving or perfect. You want a reckless god?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 10:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 602 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 3:40 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 604 of 1444 (843069)
11-12-2018 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by Phat
11-12-2018 3:40 PM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
For the purpose of this argument, we are totally imagining and making up this God.
Unlike all the others? How come I can't tell the difference when you're 'imagining' and when you're not?
So why are you setting the bar such that He always ends up holding the bag? Why can't you consider that He wants His creation to develop some responsibility and grow a pair? Why must your God be so wimpy?
Because it makes no sense at all. I'm just pointing out the obvious problems with your set up.
OK...lets assume He always knew what would happen....it still does not make Him responsible for the decisions you make...regardless whether He knew about them or not.
If he knew I would fail, but did it anyway - he's evil, whether I am right or wrong.
And don't give me the argument that you couldn't decide otherwise....its lame. The real issue is that you either didn't or won't decide otherwise....which is your free will...but which makes you responsible...not God.
But this god made me human and fallible. He gave me aggression, envy and greed. He set me up to fail. He gave me a mother but no father, I grew up in drug ridden gang land. My older brother was a dealer until he got shot.I can hardly read or write and I've never had a job. I never had a chance.
Or as Hitchens used to say, ''we are created sick and commanded to be well what kind of god would do that? it sounds like some Nazi experiment.
The real issue is that you either didn't or won't decide otherwise....which is your free will...but which makes you responsible...not God.
No, the real issue is that are only a couple of ways out of this mess, the first is that this god is, in fact evil, the other is that it's all a total fabrication and it is what it looks like - we're evolved apes making the best of it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 3:40 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 605 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 11:52 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 606 of 1444 (843079)
11-13-2018 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 605 by Phat
11-12-2018 11:52 PM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
So you are suggesting that God only create people who will succeed? If so, how does that keep them from being zombies?
No, I'm saying that the whole idea of god's creation in the way you think of it is dumb because the way you state it traps you in a paradox. If he knows that the outcome of his creation will create evil and suffering but he does it anyway, he's evil. But if he creates us without knowing the outcome he's not an omniscient God. Your God is all knowing and can't be evil ergo, your premise/s are wrong.
Ringo seems to think that any future evil that God knows about He should stop...but this brings a whole hypothetical controlled and contrived world into play...
And I say that he should not create a situation where he knows evil will occur at all.
But reality also has some people who are evil.
Yes, hence your god is either evil or reckless or doesn't exist
Hell is kinda like weeding out the bad DNA.
But he created the bad DNA (and commanded it to be good.)
and as for "chance to make it" there is no chance. There is only chosen purpose.
Crap. There is no purpose and if their was it could only be an evil one. Tell me, what is the purpose of creating a child that he knows he will send to hell? If there is no such thing as chance - and rolling two people's DNA together is almost the definition of chance - why are some people born into the ideal circumstances to fail whilst others win life's lottery?
Why do you have to be born of Christian parents to go to heaven - why is that not chance?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 11:52 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 607 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 4:12 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 608 of 1444 (843083)
11-13-2018 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 607 by Phat
11-13-2018 4:12 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
I never suggested that you did. You will be judged on how you respond to the challenges you are faced with in life no matter where you were born or what you believe.
How very modern of you. Billions of other Christians disagree and, of course, there's no way of knowing who is right.
Are you going to argue that a standard is unfair?
Are you kidding me? Of course it's unfair. But not only is it unfair, it's evil.
Everyone will be judged based on their own unique standard...not on a global one
You have absolutely no way of knowing that; it's pure wishful thinking and rationalisation.
But we're off topic and you've ignored my entire post except the very last sentence. The existence of free will either disproves god or proves that he is either evil or reckless.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 607 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 4:12 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 611 by 1.61803, posted 11-13-2018 10:31 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 612 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 10:36 AM Tangle has replied

  
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