Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 58 (9174 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,598 Year: 4,855/9,624 Month: 203/427 Week: 13/103 Day: 2/11 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 758 of 1444 (848879)
02-17-2019 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 753 by Phat
02-17-2019 10:54 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodigies?
Phat writes:
God is not constrained by time as He lives in an eternal now.
So god IS restrained by time.
(This is the problem with making shit up.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 753 by Phat, posted 02-17-2019 10:54 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 761 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 3:11 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 762 of 1444 (848897)
02-18-2019 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 761 by Phat
02-18-2019 3:11 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodigies?
Phat writes:
You know what I mean.
I really don't.
He is essentially omnipresent.
Which means he's everywhere simultanously.
All knowing is the one you're after. But you just told us that he isn't because he's restricted to knowing only the present.
If he's also ominiwhen, then he knows the future too and is therefore culpable.
And even if it were proven that I did make stuff up, it is at least better than the OT God of the book whose almighty feet you hold to the fire before discarding any reason to seek Him.
Sure - you need a biblical escape clause so you invent one. I understand that, but why stop there? I can invent a god that actually IS benevolent. But it would be just my invention.
Sheesh!
Sheesh! Indeed.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 761 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 3:11 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 768 of 1444 (848914)
02-18-2019 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 766 by Phat
02-18-2019 12:42 PM


Re: Matts 2 cents
Phat writes:
I don't, chiefly because I don't believe that He does nothing. Of course, you guys will demand I trot out evidence. That pesky E word! It runs your entire argument, even though I am arguing for a phenomenon without visible evidence. Which I suppose is an excuse for God not seeming to do anything! So here we are.
Here you go Phat, I've just put $1m in your bank account, I've fixed that gambing problem, cured that funny eye and there's no need to diet anymore. Oh, and don't worry about those shop lifters, you won't see them again.
What, you can see no evidence of any of that? Why are you asking me for evidence, don't you believe me?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 12:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 780 of 1444 (848950)
02-19-2019 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 778 by candle2
02-19-2019 7:47 AM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
candle2 writes:
Atheism is the belief (faith) that there is no God.
Wrong. Atheist don't believe in gods. That's it. Nothing else.
It's not a belief that we don't believe.
You (probably) don't believe in elves. You don't have a belief that there are no elves do you? You just don't believe in them - it's an absence of *any* belief about elves.
Do try to learn that so you don't keep repeating an error.
And, I would never put the faith of an atheist on equal footing with my faith in Jesus.
Atheists do not have faith. So I guess you're safe there.
My deep faith is it's own proof.
I'm sure it is, just don't hope to impress anyone else with that argument.
Liberal atheists/agnostics believe in baby killing
Some atheists support legal abortion, some don't. Just like Christians.
and not having to work for what they get (stealing from others).
Liar.
They support grown men loving on each other.
I imagine most would - like many Christians - but I wouldn't know. If you do I'd like to see your evidence.
And, it won't be long before they start calling us "haters" for not supporting adult with child sex, and bestiality.
If you carry on lying like that it's a certainty. I don't know what god you worship is but it's not one Jesus would recognise.
Any poor ratings that I get from liberal atheists/agnostics is to me a badge of honor. I want to be less like them as possible.
That's an ambition achieved.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 778 by candle2, posted 02-19-2019 7:47 AM candle2 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 824 of 1444 (849186)
02-27-2019 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 823 by candle2
02-27-2019 4:03 PM


Re: Character Evaluation: Both His and Ours
quote:
God, in all His love, will use everything He has to get people to convert, but He won't force them.
They will be burned up.
God, in all his love, will burn me up.
He really believes this shit and doesn't even notice the contradiction.
Amazing.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 823 by candle2, posted 02-27-2019 4:03 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 828 by candle2, posted 02-28-2019 6:47 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 826 of 1444 (849189)
02-27-2019 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 825 by candle2
02-27-2019 5:48 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
candle writes:
No one burns in hell for eternity.
Just a bit of burning then. Not forever. How reassuring.
However, you are free to turn God down on His offer for eternal life.
Thanks, I'll pass.
It would be really difficult to see someone as having any common sense if theys did this though.
You wouldn't know common sense if it sat naked on your face.
But, there is no burning in hell for eternity. Sorry that you believe there is
You've no idea how grateful I am for that special insight you have into your god's mind. Thanks for sharing.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 825 by candle2, posted 02-27-2019 5:48 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 829 by candle2, posted 02-28-2019 6:55 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 842 of 1444 (849226)
02-28-2019 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 828 by candle2
02-28-2019 6:47 AM


Re: Character Evaluation: Both His and Ours
candle writes:
Absolutely He will burn those who do not want to be a part of His family up.
Your god sounds like total arsehole. What a nasty piece of work.
He is not about to give people who are miserable, and full of hate for Him, eternal life.
Phew, for a minute there you had me worried. i'm a fairly cheery sort of chap and I can't hate someone that doesn't exist, so I guess I'll be fine.
Do you really wish to burn with incredible pain for eternity or would you rather remain dead and unconscious?
This is your loving god is it? I think I'll pass thanks.
God is loving enough to give those with righteous character eternal life, and He will share the entire universe with them. Character is of the upmost importance.
Sounds more like a psychpath to me.
If you are not intelligent enough to choose eternal life as a God being then you won't get itt.
If you think you're intelligent enough to get it, I reckon I'm safe.
But don't be angry with God; He will give you the free will to choose.
How can anybody be angry about somebody that doesn't exist.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 828 by candle2, posted 02-28-2019 6:47 AM candle2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 843 by Phat, posted 02-28-2019 3:53 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 844 of 1444 (849234)
02-28-2019 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 843 by Phat
02-28-2019 3:53 PM


Re: Character Evaluation: Both His and Ours
Phat writes:
See?
Yup, it's pretty bloody obvious isn't it?
This is why I would rather imagine God as I feel He actually is rather than go with this autocratic notion that the book supposedly teaches.
Of course, any sane person would. The trouble is that the evidence for this arsehole of a god is in your damn book. Luckily the majority of Western Christians have reformed the religion and moderated it into a nice liberal thing. You could do a lot worse that 'convert' to Anglicanism.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 843 by Phat, posted 02-28-2019 3:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 856 of 1444 (849395)
03-07-2019 6:58 PM


But this is all nonsense because according to the theology god created two perfect worlds, Heaven and Eden.
Why then suffer this crap?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 893 of 1444 (879783)
07-22-2020 1:36 PM


So long as we're all making shit up, it's pretty obvious that the god of the OT is a fabrication based on their ugly and violent cultures of all powerful kings and short brutal lives.
A god capable of creating everything in the known and unknown universe really isn't going to be either evil or petty, that just a silly human construct - we're all quite safe.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 907 of 1444 (879923)
07-25-2020 12:35 PM


I just heard someone explaining that god puts souls into people at birth. Apparently he chooses what he thinks is best for the person
Not many people talk about souls these days - or maybe I just don't mix in those circles. But is begs so many questions.
Ignoring that this is just people making shit up, what do these people think god choosing a soul for someone does for freewill?
I'd just assumed that, well, I'm buggered if I assumed anything about souls really, I think maybe I saw them as god's recording device - to be removed and recovered for analysis. But this guy seemed to be saying that it something like the person's personality.
wtf?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 908 by Phat, posted 07-25-2020 1:42 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 920 of 1444 (880038)
07-28-2020 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 919 by Phat
07-28-2020 9:58 AM


Re: What GOD Knows and What Humans Speculate
Phat writes:
I know Tangle is simply shaking his head marveling at the crazy religious stuff that people make up,
When you try to guess my mind you almost always get it dead wrong, but for once... Can you read that stuff again and not be simply embarrassed? I'm embarrassed for you.
but through Jesus, God becomes real.
Evidentially untrue. Unless what you think is happening only inside your own head is real to anybody else.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 919 by Phat, posted 07-28-2020 9:58 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 968 of 1444 (880343)
08-03-2020 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 967 by Phat
08-03-2020 9:51 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
The main reason that people don't see any need for God to exist, be relevant in their lives, or a necessary Head of a Spiritual Body of Believers is (in my opinion) because unbelievers can't conceive of the fact(for us) that He is indeed real.
Yeh, surprising isn't it? Exactly how you feel about all the other gods except the one that you thinks talks to you. And is - purely coincidentally of course - the one you were brought up with.
That all being said, I do respect my opponents position that Jesus was the messenger of a very humane, Spirit Filled and sensible message and ringo will argue that it is only the message that is important to follow and do. In his mind, the "messenger" could have just as well been Fred Flintstone.
It was Fred, or someone of the same era.
But given that the message when condensed is just 'do as you would be done by', it actually was anybody, or more accurately, everybody that said it.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 967 by Phat, posted 08-03-2020 9:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 981 of 1444 (880387)
08-04-2020 12:31 PM


All you people who think they have this thing you call freewill, can you tell me whether you feel capable of shooting a child in the head tomorrow?
Forgetting whether our secular society and your god's justice systems would frown on it, could you do it?
A robot could do it - the very thing that you claim we would be if we had no free will. A psychopath could do it - they actually do possess free will; they are not hampered by any sense of inborn and learnt empathy, so if they wanted to, they could.
Personally my free will to do many of the things that are morally wrong - stealing, raping, pillaging etc - I am incapable of. I can't even covet an ox, that's how fettered I am. And I'm an atheist - the very devil!
Free will is a religious fiction.
And just as a fun aside, why would a being that knows everything - past, present and future - even bother to create anything?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 982 by ringo, posted 08-04-2020 12:48 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 992 by Stile, posted 08-06-2020 2:31 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 983 of 1444 (880391)
08-04-2020 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 982 by ringo
08-04-2020 12:48 PM


ringo writes:
During the Vietnam War (I am Canadian, so I couldn't be drafted but I was the right age) a bunch of us had a discussion about what we would do IF we were drafted. The general consensus was that we were pacifists and we would find some way to avoid serving. BUT, when my turn came, I said, "If the government told me to go halfway around the world and kill little brown people - and the alternative was going to jail or fleeing the country - I probably would go and kill little brown people.
Maybe that makes me a psychopath. I prefer to think of myself as a psychopath with a very thin social fence holding me back.
I think it's proven that almost anybody will do almost anything if the conditions are such.
But that wasn't my test, you are liberated from social and eternal reprisals and coercion. Could you do it as a neutral act like putting the bin out?
I could certainly covet an ox. I could steal an ox - but that thin social fence holds me back from that too.
Then you are not free, my child :-)
I once stole some pretty stamp collector stamps from a high street shop. I was 11, they were worth about 2. It scared me so much I couldn't do it again. Had nightmares about it for weeks. My free will to plunder is non-existent.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 982 by ringo, posted 08-04-2020 12:48 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 984 by ringo, posted 08-04-2020 5:09 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024