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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9532
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(2)
Message 989 of 1444 (880416)
08-05-2020 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 987 by ringo
08-05-2020 12:25 PM


Re: Bumper Sticker Or Unique Meaning In Context?
ring writes:
He maintains that we are not free to do certain things, whether because of conscience or fear of social sanctions, etc.. In any case, "free will" is out the window. We are not free to choose anything we CAN (physically) do.
Not only are we not free to do things that we could physically do, our ability to do them varies between individuals and by circumstance.
Today I can't steal from shops, but I also don't need to. If I was starving I probably could. Individuals brought up in a different way to me *are* able to steal from shops. Their barriers are lower than mine.
Religious fundamentalists are able to murder indiscriminately those of a different belief - and even their own - based solely on that belief.
A priest can rape a child - I can't; physically can't, even regardless of any desire to.
A psychopath can do almost anything that we'd call evil and is only contained from doing so by intelligence and knowledge of social retribution.
Apart from being a religious fantasy, our freedom to act and/or decide is not the absolute that religious people argue. Our actions are bounded by our personalities, background, beliefs, brain structure environment and circumstances.
Most of those attributes are randomly distributed.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 987 by ringo, posted 08-05-2020 12:25 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9532
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 995 of 1444 (880487)
08-06-2020 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 992 by Stile
08-06-2020 2:31 PM


Stile writes:
Yes, I do.... Yes, I could.... I could do it....
And then
if ...
You could do it if... That's not the requirement. Can you do it just like putting out the trash? If you could you have free will and you're a psychopath.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 992 by Stile, posted 08-06-2020 2:31 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1014 by Stile, posted 08-12-2020 8:22 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9532
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1019 of 1444 (880843)
08-12-2020 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1014 by Stile
08-12-2020 8:22 AM


Stile writes:
Of course not. But this doesn't mean I don't have free will.
It means that your freewill is bounded.
I have free will to drink pink lemonade over white lemonade.
But I don't drink lemonade just like putting out the trash.
Dinking or not drinking lemonade either pink or white does not involve moral choices; you do not feel morally constrained. Exercising trivial neutral preference is not normally considered a freewill issue.
I would very much mind killing a baby cold-blooded, it's something that doesn't need to be done - but I could do it.
If you qualify this such that you are able to do it only when it becomes a moral good, you've proved my point. To have real freewill you must be able to do things that you know to be properly bad. You must be able to choose evil over good.
A psychopath is someone who does not have feelings.
Nope, a psychopath is someone who lacks empathy. It's the existence of empathy that proves that we lack free will.
Your definitions are not working.
Or maybe you're not understanding the argument?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1014 by Stile, posted 08-12-2020 8:22 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1021 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 2:48 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 1049 by Stile, posted 08-14-2020 2:21 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9532
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1022 of 1444 (880847)
08-12-2020 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1021 by Phat
08-12-2020 2:48 PM


Re: Tangling With Tangle
I have nothing to say about your made up nonsense, it's pointless but
Phat writes:
whereas you simply label it all as mental illness.
I do not. I label it the human condition. Doing wrong is natural, it's part of our evolutionary history. Our propensity to do wrong can be influenced by many things, only one of which is mental illness.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1021 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 2:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1023 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 3:12 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9532
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1024 of 1444 (880850)
08-12-2020 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1023 by Phat
08-12-2020 3:12 PM


Re: Tangling With Tangle
Phat writes:
That's a slippery slope for sure.
What is? The fact that doing wrong is natural? There's no slope it's just a truism.
The Charismaniacs predict a one world government that is humanist, good and noble on the outside yet evil at its core (by denying Christ and seeking to replace Him with God knows what)
Well that's just a pile of sh1te not worthy of comment either.
On the other end of the political spectrum we have a scientifically measured global warming crises that will also lead to war\s and competition among nations and peoples unless some sort of consensus towards global cooperation is found. I honestly think that both extremes have common ground.
Humanism is not an extreme Phat, it's just part of the developmental process of becoming a grown up society. Once religion disappears from a society, nobody misses it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1023 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 3:12 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1025 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 3:38 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 1026 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 3:42 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9532
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1027 of 1444 (880853)
08-12-2020 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1025 by Phat
08-12-2020 3:38 PM


Re: Tangling With Tangle
Phat writes:
Which will be the defining perception of government in such a scenario: Authority or Autonomy? You only get to pick one.
They'll be what they are now, variations on liberal democracies.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1025 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 3:38 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9532
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1028 of 1444 (880854)
08-12-2020 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1026 by Phat
08-12-2020 3:42 PM


Re: Tangling With Tangle
Phat writes:
And I might add a second question. If authority is necessary to maintain order, will religion someday be outlawed due to its effect on social order?
Of course not, religion will just be a minority irrelevance - as it is now in some modern Western democracies. We really don't care Phat, believe what you like.
What would be the possible authority thus represented apart from consensual authority granted by the people upon themselves? Is that not in actuality global autonomy?
I have no idea what this means, can you try again?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1026 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 3:42 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1029 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 4:03 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9532
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 1038 of 1444 (880888)
08-13-2020 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1034 by Phat
08-13-2020 11:33 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Phat writes:
I know that Tangle is simply dismissing all of this religious hoopla,
What? Devils and plots in heaven and god being outfoxed and sending a god that was only a man to make up for something a snake did thousands of years earlier?
Phat, this is not just un-fucking-believable, it's really embarrassing .
but I might point out that he would follow the hypothetical maths which "prove" that the universe sprang from nothing. He is thus responsible for the belief that he chooses regarding origins, meaning, and destiny.
You're never going to stop making stuff up not only about what you want to believe but also what everyone else does too are you?
I don't choose anything about origins, I haven't a clue and never will. I just point out errors you people make when you attempt to recruit bits of science you don't understand for your neurotic god.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1034 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 11:33 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9532
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 1053 of 1444 (880937)
08-14-2020 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1049 by Stile
08-14-2020 2:21 PM


Stile writes:
You mentioned killing a baby isn't like taking out the trash - implying that one is easy and one is not
Both are technically easily accomplished.
and further implying that a "not-easy one" is also impossible.
That's your interpretation not mine.
My claim is that, for instance, you are incapable of killing a baby just because you feel like it today. If that is the case, you need to explain how you think you have free will.
Killing a baby is not impossible because it's "morally difficult" to choose.
It's simply that - morally difficult to choose.
Such difficult adds in a consequence of extreme bad feelings and regret.
Some will be capable of handling these, some will not.
For some, like psychopaths, it's very easy to "handle these" because they don't have to handle them - they do not feel the bad feelings or regret.
But, again, this doesn't make it impossible for a non-psychopath to choose the morally difficult decision - and then deal with the very bad feelings and regret.
This is not about after the fact regret, I'm saying that you can't actually do it can you? It's not 'morally difficult to choose', you can not do it (without qualifiers). Or can you?
This is not an academic question, it's a practical, pragmatic one.
Ha ha - you may as well say that the Bible being the most popular best selling book proves that God exists.
Bollox.
We also don't have infinite empathy. We have finite empathy. Different for different people.
So our freedom to act varies by individual. Which is exactly what I say. Our free will is bounded and only the psychopath are able to operate entirely freely - if they so wish. The clever ones don't of course, because there are social consequences.
Empathy constrains our freedom to do evil.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1049 by Stile, posted 08-14-2020 2:21 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1096 by Stile, posted 08-17-2020 10:07 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9532
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1095 of 1444 (881059)
08-17-2020 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1093 by Phat
08-17-2020 8:44 AM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes:
Because we become the decisions that we make.
I suspect that our own decisions form only small very small part of what we become.
For a start, we are a product of the genetic make up of our parents and our time and place of birth determine our culture and our beliefs. Parental income determines educational standards and parenting itself predicts outcomes for health, crime and achievement.
Our personalities and intelligence are not our choices, nor are our psychological illnesses and dispositions.
We are all products of our genes and our environment, it's far too simple to suggest that we are in control of our life choices - the majority are either already made for us or are not acheivable.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1093 by Phat, posted 08-17-2020 8:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9532
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1102 of 1444 (881079)
08-17-2020 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1096 by Stile
08-17-2020 10:07 AM


Stile writes:
I can't think of any day I would feel like killing a baby.
Of course not. Very few people have that freedom of will - thankfully.
I have free will, because I could choose to kill a baby despite not feeling like doing it.
But you couldn't actually could you? Your freewill to actually do it is severely constrained by your sense of morality.
In the same vein (but, much less seriously...) I can choose to take out the trash despite not feeling like doing it.
Nope, you have no constraints preventing you putting out the trash
It's a matter of being able to deal with the feelings.
Exactly my point. Your feelings constrains your ability to act freely.
I can.
No matter how many times you ask the question - the answer will be the same.
You know that you can't, why pretend? Only a psychopath could casually kill a baby. Are you a psychopath?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1096 by Stile, posted 08-17-2020 10:07 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1226 by Stile, posted 08-24-2020 1:22 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9532
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 1154 of 1444 (881236)
08-20-2020 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1147 by Phat
08-20-2020 10:18 AM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Phat writes:
I disagree with your assertion that God can never be known
There are only three ways of finding out about this god of yours
1. Personal revelation. This is delusional but you and many others believe it. The major problem with it as far as evidence goes is that it's personal to you so meaningless to others and that the revelations differ between individuals indicating their personal manufacture - we make the god we want to believe in. (Hence your rejection of much of Jesus's message.)
2. The Bible. The source of ALL information. The multitude of problem with this as a source of factual 'truth' have been discussed to death here. But it's all you have.
3. Other people. Priests, apologists, bloggers, everyman and his dog. All these people derive their opinions from 1 or 2 above so are the worst possible source - third hand 'knowledge' from people with no more information than yourself applying their own prejudices to the message.
there is no way that I can describe to you how I feel it is possible in my own life.
You don't have to, many of us have experienced it for ourselves. You're not special Phat.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1147 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 10:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9532
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1227 of 1444 (881455)
08-24-2020 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1226 by Stile
08-24-2020 1:22 PM


Stile writes:
I didn't say I could casually kill a baby.
I know you didn't but that was my requirement. We know there are circumstances when normal people may be able to kill a baby. Some more easily than others and some probably not at all.
My requirement is that you do it as casually as putting the bins out for no other reason than 'well, why not?'
It's seems a perfectly obvious point to make that our freewill is bounded. We are restrained to varying degrees by our sense of morality - empathy. The killing the baby thought experiment just shows an extreme boundary. And no, you could not casually kill a baby. Or at least I hope not. But there are people who could.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1226 by Stile, posted 08-24-2020 1:22 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1260 by Stile, posted 08-25-2020 2:53 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9532
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1229 of 1444 (881460)
08-24-2020 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1228 by Phat
08-24-2020 4:10 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
Phat writes:
If the answer was ever truly in your head and your heart and the answer was Jesus Christ, I would argue that you cant really outgrow Him as easily as you would a Santa Claus myth, spaghetti monster mythos, or any other fool thing that humans believe.
You can't argue that Phat because it's not an argument, it's just you not wanting to believe something you don't like.
It was true for me, accept it.
Unless you finally concluded that human wisdom made God rather than the other way around. In which case I argue that you are WRONG. I dont care how many years you put in. Science and its method are great for telling us facts about material reality but are no better than spiritual belief and experience at defining and/or disproving God. You simply chose to no longer believe...for whatever reason.
In my case it had nothing to do with science or disproving god or choosing anything. It was just a realisation that the whole thing was a pile of made up nonsense.
I was about 14 and I'd never heard of evolution or the scientific method. Just accept it, I believed exactly like you, then I didn't. Don't try to spin it, it's a fact.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1228 by Phat, posted 08-24-2020 4:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1240 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 1:41 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9532
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1243 of 1444 (881514)
08-25-2020 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1240 by Phat
08-25-2020 1:41 AM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
Phat writes:
Did you ever see unexplained behavior,voices coming out of people that sounded nothing like them, bodies convulsing on the floor, and after the "excorcism, radiant peace and healing tears? Did you ever hear several voices at once come out of someone that no human could imitate such a sound? Did you have your hair stand on end? Did you realize that at worst, you were definitely experiencing something unexplained? That's a fact for me
I've seen many of those but only in a mental hospital where they belong. If those things happened in the church I attended my parents would have had the sense not to take me there - it would be child abuse. No wonder you're so fucked up.
If that's what you think belief in Jesus is, you're as crazy as they are. I believed as deeply as anyone could without the hysterical pantomime, accept it and stop projecting.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1240 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 1:41 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1244 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 5:50 AM Tangle has replied

  
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