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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 466 of 1444 (785088)
05-27-2016 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by ringo
05-27-2016 12:52 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
As a christian, I'm not interested in figuring out Gods reasoning,morality, or how and why some are known by him and others are not. I trust his perfection. It is my own issues that I worry (and pray) about. If in fact God (for some reason which you refer to as a voodoo entity) has a divine plan, I'm more interested in my own conduct and behavior rather than worrying if I get voodooed or not.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by ringo, posted 05-27-2016 12:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by Tangle, posted 05-27-2016 5:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 468 by ringo, posted 05-28-2016 12:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 467 of 1444 (785094)
05-27-2016 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Phat
05-27-2016 4:05 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:
I'm more interested in my own conduct and behavior rather than worrying if I get voodooed or not.
So give up the voodoo, you'd make a decent human being if you didn't waste so much of your time, effort and mindspace worrying about stuff that even it exists you couldn't begin to understand.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Phat, posted 05-27-2016 4:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 468 of 1444 (785164)
05-28-2016 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Phat
05-27-2016 4:05 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:
I trust his perfection.
Well, sure. I trust Long John Silver's one-legged agility. That's the way the character is written.
Phat writes:
If in fact God (for some reason which you refer to as a voodoo entity) has a divine plan, I'm more interested in my own conduct and behavior rather than worrying if I get voodooed or not.
So what does your own conduct and behaviour have to do with any external entity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Phat, posted 05-27-2016 4:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 469 of 1444 (785220)
05-30-2016 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by Phat
05-27-2016 2:13 AM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:
1) Picture a Creator of all seen and unseen.
As far as the topic goes, your entire 3-part understanding either includes free-will or not depending on how this "creation" went.
Was there ever a moment (perhaps before the creation, perhaps during it..) where the Creator did not know the future of the creation?
If yes - then I can logically see free will fitting in. Perhaps just un-intuitively, as my idea suggests.
If no - then I cannot see a way free will could actually fit in. This would imply a creator thinking up our futures... and then creating them and "so it shall be." Such a mechanical creation seems to eliminate the possibility for free will, as I understand it.
Does this make sense?
I hope the above answers your question in context to this topic.
If you're looking for something beyond the mere presence of free will... if your understanding makes sense in general... it's not something I have knowledge of
Personally, to me, from my experience... no, it all sounds a bit... created-by-man.
But, so does my idea of forcing the existence of free-will into a universe where it's possible to know the future.
Can it make logical sense? I guess so... as much as we can say it does without knowing how a universe "logically" comes into being anyway.
Does it make reasonable sense?
I think the way Cat Sci is explaining free will (the present is a fundamental reality of how time works, and therefore no one... not even a God... can "see the future" without removing free will). Is the most likely candidate of how things actually work. All the evidence we have seems to fit this picture, and it's the simplest picture without adding unnecessary elements.
Both my idea of free-will-with-the-ability-of-knowing-the-future and your understanding-presented-here include aspects that must be assumed simply to make the ideas work. There's no evidence for my idea that "we're playing back a recording" and there's no evidence for the existence of God, Jesus or a "Beast." There's nothing logically ruling them out... as long as they exist in some as-yet-undiscovered (or even beyond-our-ability-to-discover) form. But invoking the unknown isn't generally a good way to go about understanding reality. It's merely a tool to keep our minds aware of the fact that we don't know everything... this helps leave us open to the possibility of being wrong... which allows us to move onto a closer-to-the-truth explanation when/if new information comes along.
If you want to seriously pursue either idea as an actual aspect of reality (other than a though-experiment simply to prove a logically possible point)... then I would suggest the next step is to figure out a way to find evidence to back the idea.
You would need to devise a test of some sort.
Some way to differentiate between "being a recording" vs. "not being a recording."
Or a way to tell the difference between "a Beast indeed exists" vs. "a universe where no Beast exists."
If you could develop such tests, and run them, and the result happens to be what you're looking for... then you have the beginnings of a foundation for showing that such ideas are actually a part of reality.
Without such tests, unfortunately, these ideas must remain in the realm of "playful imaginings of things that are not impossible."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Phat, posted 05-27-2016 2:13 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by Phat, posted 06-09-2016 7:38 PM Stile has replied
 Message 471 by Phat, posted 06-09-2016 7:43 PM Stile has replied
 Message 472 by NoNukes, posted 06-09-2016 8:30 PM Stile has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 470 of 1444 (785739)
06-09-2016 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by Stile
05-30-2016 1:47 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Was there ever a moment (perhaps before the creation, perhaps during it..) where the Creator did not know the future of the creation?
No. God was, Is and always will be. There is never a moment that He was not.(or was unaware)
If no - then I cannot see a way free will could actually fit in. This would imply a creator thinking up our futures... and then creating them and "so it shall be." Such a mechanical creation seems to eliminate the possibility for free will, as I understand it.
I disagree. IF God is with me during every moment that I live, it is irrelevant whether He observes my free will in the past, present or future. In fact, the ONLY way that I could have a free will unknown by Him is if I myself were unknown by Him.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Stile, posted 05-30-2016 1:47 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by Stile, posted 06-13-2016 9:00 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 471 of 1444 (785740)
06-09-2016 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by Stile
05-30-2016 1:47 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
I think the way Cat Sci is explaining free will (the present is a fundamental reality of how time works, and therefore no one... not even a God... can "see the future" without removing free will). Is the most likely candidate of how things actually work. All the evidence we have seems to fit this picture, and it's the simplest picture without adding unnecessary elements.
You guys dont get it. The Body Of Christ is composed of those who know Christ and whom he knows. The Beast is essentially the "Body" of the Antichrist. Those unknown by God.
The Body of Christ was, (known before the foundations of the world) IS and forever will be.
The Beast once was (As a freewilled Lucifer who chose to rebel and become unknown) IS NOT (unknown by God) and yet IS for those whose names are not written in the Book of Life.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Stile, posted 05-30-2016 1:47 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by ringo, posted 06-10-2016 12:11 PM Phat has replied
 Message 480 by Stile, posted 06-13-2016 9:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 472 of 1444 (785746)
06-09-2016 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by Stile
05-30-2016 1:47 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
All the evidence we have seems to fit this picture, and it's the simplest picture without adding unnecessary elements.
What evidence? How are you able to determine via observation exactly how 'free will' works? How do you test the effect of omniscience?
What I suspect is that people are comfortable with one or the other philosophical answer or one or more logical argument. But there is no evidence regarding any of this stuff.
ABE:
Observation suggests that we have at least the illusion of free will. So we might lean towards saying that free will exists. However, we don't have any way of simulating time machines, omniscient beings, all powerful OZ's or rocks too heavy for God to lift. So how are you concluding that the evidence is on one side or the other?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Stile, posted 05-30-2016 1:47 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by Stile, posted 06-13-2016 9:29 AM NoNukes has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 473 of 1444 (785776)
06-10-2016 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by Phat
06-09-2016 7:43 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:
You guys dont get it. The Body Of Christ is composed of those who know Christ and whom he knows. The Beast is essentially the "Body" of the Antichrist. Those unknown by God.
It's nice to know there's something God doesn't know.
As you know, I have campaigned before to be removed from His list.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Phat, posted 06-09-2016 7:43 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by Phat, posted 06-11-2016 3:11 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 474 of 1444 (785787)
06-11-2016 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 473 by ringo
06-10-2016 12:11 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Perhaps God is preparing you to be satans defense attorney.
OR....perhaps you are referring to the naughty list, of which i would also want my name removed.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by ringo, posted 06-10-2016 12:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by ringo, posted 06-11-2016 11:35 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 475 of 1444 (785795)
06-11-2016 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 474 by Phat
06-11-2016 3:11 AM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:
OR....perhaps you are referring to the naughty list, of which i would also want my name removed.
I would like to be on the list of things He doesn't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Phat, posted 06-11-2016 3:11 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by Phat, posted 06-11-2016 3:41 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 476 of 1444 (785820)
06-11-2016 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by ringo
06-11-2016 11:35 AM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
ringo writes:
I would like to be on the list of things He doesn't know.
Would Him knowing you and/or everything about you take away your free will?
Or is there another reason you reject this potential relationship?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by ringo, posted 06-11-2016 11:35 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by ringo, posted 06-12-2016 2:13 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 477 of 1444 (785861)
06-12-2016 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 476 by Phat
06-11-2016 3:41 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:
Would Him knowing you and/or everything about you take away your free will?
Well, that's the problem that's being discussed in this and countless other threads. Believers insist that there are rewards attached to a relationship with Him but the rewards always have strings attached. It's, "Do as I say and you'll be rewarded." Why would I want a relationship like that? If there was real free will, there would have to be an opt-out clause. I'll accept the natural consequences of my actions but you can keep the eternal damnation and the eternal reward.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by Phat, posted 06-11-2016 3:41 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by Phat, posted 06-13-2016 3:01 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 478 of 1444 (785882)
06-13-2016 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 477 by ringo
06-12-2016 2:13 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Believers insist that there are rewards attached to a relationship with Him but the rewards always have strings attached. It's, "Do as I say and you'll be rewarded." Why would I want a relationship like that? If there was real free will, there would have to be an opt-out clause. I'll accept the natural consequences of my actions but you can keep the eternal damnation and the eternal reward.
So tell Him that. In my opinion, its not as you say. Nobody wants a relationship of any kind if they have to start obeying the other person and get bribed and threatened.
Personally, I think that honest skeptics have as good of a shot or better than "true" believers do. And you are right. Who cares about eternal reward? Lets just have a great communion today...in the present moment.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by ringo, posted 06-12-2016 2:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 484 by ringo, posted 06-13-2016 12:10 PM Phat has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 479 of 1444 (785894)
06-13-2016 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 470 by Phat
06-09-2016 7:38 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:
In fact, the ONLY way that I could have a free will unknown by Him is if I myself were unknown by Him.
I agree with this statement.
Phat writes:
Stile writes:
I cannot see a way free will could actually fit in. This would imply a creator thinking up our futures... and then creating them and "so it shall be." Such a mechanical creation seems to eliminate the possibility for free will, as I understand it.
I disagree. IF God is with me during every moment that I live, it is irrelevant whether He observes my free will in the past, present or future.
An observation implies that one does not know what will happen... that they are watching to find out and see.
Is God "observing" you? Or is God watching you play out the programming He put into your life at creation?
When God created you with full knowledge of your entire life... did the idea of your entire life enter God's mind at some point? Can you say it *came from you* in any way?
Or did God think up a man who will be doing x, y and z throughout their lives... and then make that happen?
The first way implies that God (at some point in time) did not have full knowledge of your life. This way, I can see free-will being preserved.
The second way implies that God thought up and programmed a robot. You're simply running through the programming God initially desired. This does not conform to any definition of free will I could accept.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Phat, posted 06-09-2016 7:38 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 480 of 1444 (785895)
06-13-2016 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 471 by Phat
06-09-2016 7:43 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:
You guys dont get it.
Ha ha
Phat, the trick is... nobody "get's it."
The secrets to life, the universe and everything?
The Bible doesn't have the answers.
I don't have the answers.
You don't have the answers.
Science doesn't have the answers.
Religion doesn't have the answers.
No one and no body of knowledge ever collected by humans has ever had the answers.
If the answers to that were known, we would not be asking these questions... they would already be answered.
Therefore, if you're going to offer a solution... you're going to have to back it up with a bit more than "this is my interpretation of the Bible."
Many people have their own interpretation of the Bible.
Many people have their own interpretation of the scientific ideas.
Many people have their own interpretation of their own experiences.
Until any of it is shown to be valid in any way at all... we're all in the same, empty boat.
The Body Of Christ is composed of those who know Christ and whom he knows. The Beast is essentially the "Body" of the Antichrist. Those unknown by God.
The Body of Christ was, (known before the foundations of the world) IS and forever will be.
The Beast once was (As a freewilled Lucifer who chose to rebel and become unknown) IS NOT (unknown by God) and yet IS for those whose names are not written in the Book of Life.
Maybe.
Maybe not.
But none of this helps us determine if God can create us with full knowledge of who we are and what we're going to do and preserve free will or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Phat, posted 06-09-2016 7:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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