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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 631 of 858 (843188)
11-14-2018 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 630 by 1.61803
11-14-2018 9:03 AM


Re: Definition of free will
1.62 writes:

Im just glad we can have this conversation rather than not exist at all.

That sounds like a false choice to me - no-existence or evil and suffering. The all powerful god is apparently incapable of creating a peaceful creation. Except heaven of course....now there's an idea.

Since things do exist it seems everything affects everything.
The lion is not evil when it consumes a zebra.

And there's another evil - why invent carnivores?

When some mentally deranged person commits a heinous crime against another person it is evil but how can one negate a murderer's free will to kill?

Why on earth would you invent th3 capability/need/ability to start with?

Ether there is free will for evil and good alike or there is none.
Evil may be the price we pay for our freewill. I do not know.

I think you've swallowed the religious hokum. What's wrong with heaven?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by 1.61803, posted 11-14-2018 9:03 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 632 by 1.61803, posted 11-14-2018 10:17 AM Tangle has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2905
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 632 of 858 (843190)
11-14-2018 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 631 by Tangle
11-14-2018 9:17 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Tangle writes:

That sounds like a false choice to me

It is what it is.

Tangle writes:

And there's another evil - why invent carnivores?


It comes with the territory apparently. Besides a good steak is yummy. Not so good for the poor cow though. There is that free will of mine infringing on the cows quality of life.

Tangle writes:

Why on earth would you invent th3 capability/need/ability to start with?

I suppose that as well is a unfortunate side effect of having beings with the freedom to do evil stuff.

Tangle writes:

I think you've swallowed the religious hokum. What's wrong with heaven?

If you wind up there you can tell me.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2018 9:17 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 633 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2018 11:06 AM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 633 of 858 (843192)
11-14-2018 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 632 by 1.61803
11-14-2018 10:17 AM


Re: Definition of free will
1.62 writes:

It is what it is.

It is what it is because life here evolved that way - competition between species, carnivorousness, pain and suffering all makes perfect sense.

But no loving god would ever create such a thing and nor is it the only creation possible.

I suppose that as well is a unfortunate side effect of having beings with the freedom to do evil stuff.

There is no necessity to have that ability.

If you wind up there you can tell me.

I'm using heaven as an example of a godly creation that doesn't involve evil and suffering. Apparently it's perfectly possible.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 632 by 1.61803, posted 11-14-2018 10:17 AM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 634 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-14-2018 11:19 AM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12811
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 634 of 858 (843193)
11-14-2018 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 633 by Tangle
11-14-2018 11:06 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Personally, I'll go with the argument that suffering builds character and makes for stronger human prototypes to someday launch out into space. Are you suggesting that a loving God would build a Heaven for us to all dwell in now? (As my loving Father, the homebuilder, built a home for us when I was small?) I say we humans are far too weak and flawed to dwell in such a lavish place. Unless of course, God remade us stronger, kinder, and gentler. Some would argue that He is letting us strengthen ourselves. You have mentioned that society is improving...we are becoming more moral...with or without a God or the approval or scrutiny of One.

Of course, some of my religious contemporaries cling to that whole original sin idea...claiming that what we really need is the establishment of Communion with said God. You may argue that it is God Who needs improvement rather than us. Funny argument that. jar always pushed that crap...that human corrected the god character. But as long as we are imagining One, I suppose we can suggest improvements...


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 633 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2018 11:06 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 635 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2018 11:32 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 635 of 858 (843194)
11-14-2018 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 634 by Thugpreacha
11-14-2018 11:19 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

Personally, I'll go with the argument that suffering builds character and makes for stronger human prototypes to someday launch out into space.

Why not just build us strong to start with?
(And that's such a terrible Victorian idea - suffering hurts and kills; makes us stronger my arse. And why do we need to be stronger anyway???)

Are you suggesting that a loving God would build a Heaven for us to all dwell in now?

Why not?

(As my loving Father, the homebuilder, built a home for us when I was small?)

Isn't that what a real loving father would do? How come your god isn't as good as your human father?

I say we humans are far too weak and flawed to dwell in such a lavish place.

He bloody made us that way! It makes no sense at all.

Unless of course, God remade us stronger, kinder, and gentler. Some would argue that He is letting us strengthen ourselves. You have mentioned that society is improving...we are becoming more moral...with or without a God or the approval or scrutiny of One.
Of course, some of my religious contemporaries cling to that whole original sin idea...claiming that what we really need is the establishment of Communion with said God. You may argue that it is God Who needs improvement rather than us. Funny argument that. jar always pushed that crap...that human corrected the god character. But as long as we are imagining One, I suppose we can suggest improvements...

A child could imagine improvements on this life. It so obviously isn't the result of a loving and all powerful being that it's laughable.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-14-2018 11:19 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 636 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-14-2018 7:38 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12811
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 636 of 858 (843216)
11-14-2018 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 635 by Tangle
11-14-2018 11:32 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Tangle writes:

Really Phat, stop projecting, put your prejudices away and start understanding that atheists are fully human too.

Oh, stop! I obviously know all too well that you and ringo are both quite human and quite likable...otherwise, I would never bother going rounds with you. I was just getting frustrated at ringos arguments. You make many of the same ones in your own unique style. To be honest, your arguments occasionally resonate with me and I honestly can't shrug them off as adamantly as Faith does. The way that you describe the belief does make it sound ridiculous at times.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2018 11:32 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12811
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 637 of 858 (846606)
01-09-2019 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by ringo
07-21-2015 12:45 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:

What if at exactly this moment, another serial killer had just purchased a large cache of weapons and was heading towards the High School.


ringo writes:

How can you possibly excuse a God who would not stop him?


How can one imagine a way that God *would* stop him?

  • Cause a change of mind? Nope...free will + evidence that shows that people don't get stopped.
  • Lightning Bolt? Evidence shows rare examples of intervention, but arguably it was random anyway.
  • Give foreknowledge to police? Well they have used psychics before, but thats other spirits anyway.

    Seriously though...IF God existed, what demand would or should humanity place on His responsibility of office?

    AddbyEdit: He likely would inform us that it was our responsibility to have treated the mentally deranged person with more love years before this happened. So where does the buck stop? Gods desk or ours?

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 133 by ringo, posted 07-21-2015 12:45 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 638 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 3:57 PM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17297
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    (2)
    Message 638 of 858 (846607)
    01-09-2019 3:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 637 by Thugpreacha
    01-09-2019 3:50 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    Phat writes:

    Cause a change of mind? Nope...free will + evidence that shows that people don't get stopped.


    God switched Pharaoh's mind back and forth like a TV remote.

    Phat writes:

    Lightning Bolt? Evidence shows rare examples of intervention, but arguably it was random anyway.


    Sodom and Gomorrah. It definitely can be done.

    Phat writes:

    Give foreknowledge to police? Well they have used psychics before, but thats other spirits anyway


    Why bother? If God has ANY power, why wouldn't He use it? Why use a middleman?

    Phat writes:

    IF God existed, what demand would or should humanity place on His responsibility of office?


    If He would do ANYTHING useful, just anything at all, that would be nice.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 637 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-09-2019 3:50 PM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 639 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-09-2019 4:14 PM ringo has responded
     Message 640 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-09-2019 4:22 PM ringo has responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12811
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 639 of 858 (846609)
    01-09-2019 4:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 638 by ringo
    01-09-2019 3:57 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    Like you say, the evidence shows that we have to do it. Maybe thats why you consider Him unnecessary even if He did exist.

    Perhaps He wants it this way...for us to develop empathy and compassion without help.

    Or perhaps He does not exist, but that wont hinder my belief. The lesson I need to learn is that He likely expects me to do it myself. *grumble grumble*.....

    ICANT argues that God has never let him down and that they commune daily. I will make the same claim, and I won't rule out that God is actively involved...just by giving me quiet encouragement. Why feel alone in this universe? (For those of us who are unmarried)

    Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 638 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 3:57 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 641 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 4:24 PM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12811
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 640 of 858 (846610)
    01-09-2019 4:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 638 by ringo
    01-09-2019 3:57 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    If God has ANY power, why wouldn't He use it?
    One could argue that He gave us the power and expects us to develop it.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 638 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 3:57 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 658 by ringo, posted 01-10-2019 10:36 AM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17297
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 641 of 858 (846611)
    01-09-2019 4:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 639 by Thugpreacha
    01-09-2019 4:14 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    Phat writes:

    Like you say, the evidence shows that we have to do it.


    That isn't what I said. I gave the examples of God messing with Pharaoh's head and genociding Sodom and Gomorrah. I said that it would be nice if He did something useful instead.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 639 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-09-2019 4:14 PM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 642 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-09-2019 4:28 PM ringo has responded
     Message 644 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-09-2019 4:35 PM ringo has responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12811
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 642 of 858 (846615)
    01-09-2019 4:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 641 by ringo
    01-09-2019 4:24 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    This whole attitude that humans are capable of or expected to prod God into action is just silly. Either do it yourself and don't trust Him or admit that what you ask is, in fact, a prayer request and go ahead and pray it or acknowledge that you did.

    You switch back and forth from scripture to counter-apologetics as fast as Pharoah turned his head. Hypothetically, would you resist prayer on the grounds that you rate belief lower than low?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 641 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 4:24 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 647 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 5:06 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12811
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 643 of 858 (846618)
    01-09-2019 4:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 242 by ringo
    07-28-2015 11:54 AM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    If we have "free will", we should be free to consider God wrong, from our point of view.
    Ok, then what? Him being wrong doesn't change anything.

    What annoys me is the idea that God already has my place in Hell reserved, that I don't even know yet what it is that will send me there but He does - and YOU have the gall to suggest that its my choice.
    It may well be a choice of yours down the road. Who cares if He knows it before you did? You still have to go through the motions of making the decision. And who is to say that he altars that in any way...apart from foreknowledge?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 242 by ringo, posted 07-28-2015 11:54 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 646 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 5:03 PM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12811
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 644 of 858 (846619)
    01-09-2019 4:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 641 by ringo
    01-09-2019 4:24 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    I gave the examples of God messing with Pharaoh's head and genociding Sodom and Gomorrah.
    God may have been stimulating Pharoahs conscience. The issue may have been what Pharaoh's eventual destiny would become. As for Sodom, they made their own bed. Volcanos happen.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 641 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 4:24 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 645 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 4:59 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17297
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    (1)
    Message 645 of 858 (846632)
    01-09-2019 4:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 644 by Thugpreacha
    01-09-2019 4:35 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    Phat writes:

    God may have been stimulating Pharoahs conscience.


    You have it backwards. God hardened Pharaoh's heart - i.e. He deliberately interfered with Pharaoh's natural conscience. At best, that was counter- productive. At worst, it was downright malicious.

    Phat writes:

    As for Sodom, they made their own bed. Volcanos happen.


    That's incoherent.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 644 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-09-2019 4:35 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 648 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 5:07 PM ringo has responded

      
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