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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 661 of 800 (846690)
01-10-2019 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 659 by ringo
01-10-2019 10:40 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Why on earth do you think such silly crapola is cute?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by ringo, posted 01-10-2019 10:40 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 662 by ringo, posted 01-10-2019 10:51 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 662 of 800 (846693)
01-10-2019 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 661 by Faith
01-10-2019 10:43 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Faith writes:

Why on earth do you think such silly crapola is cute?


Since you're wrong about practically everything, I'll take that as a compliment.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 10:43 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14720
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 663 of 800 (846696)
01-10-2019 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 655 by Faith
01-10-2019 9:05 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
quote:

We understand that God's causing Pharoah to commit the sin of hardening his heart against the Israelites was not His committing the sin Himself.

Strictly speaking Exodus says that God hardened Pharoahs heart (eg Exodus 7:13). So if hardening Pharoahs heart was a sin (your idea, not mine), God committed it.

quote:

He's the source of power for everything we do but He doesn't share in our motivations.

Giving us the power to do something is not the same as manipulating us into doing it. And since when were motivations sufficient to justify a sinful act ?

More importantly this does not address the real points at all.

Let us start with the basic problem.

Exodus has God say that he will directly intervene to change the Pharaohs state of mind (eg Exodus 7:3) and has God doing so (eg Exodus 7:13). You assert that this is identical to the Pharaoh hardening his own heart.

However, even under Calvinistic views the presence or absence of direct intervention would seem to be a difference, and even if you were to hold that it was not there is no reason to deny the presence of direct intervention (which mKes the whole point moot).

I submit then that the lack of understanding is clearly yours.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:05 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 664 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 11:22 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 664 of 800 (846697)
01-10-2019 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 663 by PaulK
01-10-2019 11:14 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
It also says Pharoah hardened his own heart. Reading it intelligently leads to the understanding that both are true and equivalent in meaning. God manipulates nothing. When Pharoah changes his attitude he does it himself and God does it, both.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 663 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2019 11:14 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 665 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2019 11:28 AM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14720
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 665 of 800 (846698)
01-10-2019 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 664 by Faith
01-10-2019 11:22 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
quote:

It also says Pharoah hardened his own heart.

By memory it never says both for the same event. If you disagree, please cite the relevant verse(s). There is no problem with the idea that sometimes God did it and sometimes the Pharaoh did it himself.

quote:

Reading it intelligently leads to the understanding that both are true and equivalent in meaning.

You have a very strange idea of intelligence.

quote:

God manipulates nothing.

Which - according to you - is the same as saying that God manipulates all our choices.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 664 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 11:22 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 666 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 11:56 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 666 of 800 (846703)
01-10-2019 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 665 by PaulK
01-10-2019 11:28 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Doesn't need to be the same event.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 665 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2019 11:28 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 667 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2019 12:12 PM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14720
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 667 of 800 (846705)
01-10-2019 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 666 by Faith
01-10-2019 11:56 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
quote:

Doesn't need to be the same event

It certainly does need to be if your argument has any hope of success. If you dont even understand that different events can play out differently you have a serious mental problem.

Try this, if you flip a coin once and it comes up heads, flip it again and it comes up tails does that prove that heads and tails are the same ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 666 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 11:56 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 670 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 8:28 PM PaulK has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 668 of 800 (846711)
01-10-2019 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 658 by ringo
01-10-2019 10:36 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
ringo writes:

If He has the power to stop it, why doesn't He use it?

For the same reason that He doesn't make you believe in or worship Him.

If you or I were the only people at an event with money, it would not necessarily mean that we had a responsibility to use it on others. While it would be nice and expected, it should never be mandated.

If a Doctor is at a football game, it may be expected for him to offer his services and training if a call went out for a Doctor in the house. The Doctor, however, makes the decision whether to help or not.

If a Deity exists who claims to be all-powerful, it would be nice and expected (by humans) for such a Deity to be useful to us. The fact is, however, it is up to the deity...not the audience. It is always up to the individual...society never should have the power to mandate our help nor corral our resources for their collective benefit.

Besides...the bottom line is that God and only God decides such matters.

You, of course, are free to reject the idea or reality of such a God, should One exist. You don't know all of the facts, however. Perhaps God has better reasons why NOT to help.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 658 by ringo, posted 01-10-2019 10:36 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 669 by ringo, posted 01-10-2019 2:59 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 669 of 800 (846712)
01-10-2019 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 668 by Phat
01-10-2019 2:51 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:

If you or I were the only people at an event with money, it would not necessarily mean that we had a responsibility to use it on others.


Yes it would. Jesus said so. We've been through this before.

Phat writes:

Besides...the bottom line is that God and only God decides such matters.


That makes Him evil.

Phat writes:

Perhaps God has better reasons why NOT to help.


That's your favorite copout. But you don't have all of the facts either. You're just making excuses for your pathetic god.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by Phat, posted 01-10-2019 2:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 670 of 800 (846716)
01-10-2019 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 667 by PaulK
01-10-2019 12:12 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
No it does not need to be the same event. God hardened Pharoah's heart and Pharoah hardened his own heart. Same thing.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2019 12:12 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 671 by PaulK, posted 01-11-2019 12:12 AM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14720
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 671 of 800 (846727)
01-11-2019 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 670 by Faith
01-10-2019 8:28 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
quote:

No it does not need to be the same event. God hardened Pharoah's heart and Pharoah hardened his own heart. Same thing.

Then please explain your reasoning. How does the fact that at one or two points in the story the Pharoah hardened his own heart instead of God hardening it, as in the other cases, show that they are the same thing?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 670 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 8:28 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 12:16 AM PaulK has responded
 Message 673 by Phat, posted 01-11-2019 12:17 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 672 of 800 (846728)
01-11-2019 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 671 by PaulK
01-11-2019 12:12 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Nothing to show, we know it because we understand how scripture is to be read.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by PaulK, posted 01-11-2019 12:12 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 675 by PaulK, posted 01-11-2019 12:35 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 673 of 800 (846729)
01-11-2019 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 671 by PaulK
01-11-2019 12:12 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
im not looking at the story right now, but common sense tells me that Pharoah resisted God and thus hardened his own heart. God caused it to be hardened in response to Pharoahs free-willed resistance to Gods influence. Does that make any sense in context? Its what usually happens to people...

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by PaulK, posted 01-11-2019 12:12 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 674 by PaulK, posted 01-11-2019 12:29 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14720
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 674 of 800 (846730)
01-11-2019 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 673 by Phat
01-11-2019 12:17 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
quote:

im not looking at the story right now, but common sense tells me that Pharoah resisted God and thus hardened his own heart.

What you think the story ought to say and what it does say are two different things. As I pointed out to Faith the story explicitly claims that God said he would harden the Pharaohs heart and explicitly says that he did so on most of the occasions.

quote:

God caused it to be hardened in response to Pharoahs free-willed resistance to Gods influence. Does that make any sense in context?

No. The point is the reason for the Pharaohs decisions - God wanted the Pharaoh to refuse to let the Israelites go (because then he had a pretext for sending the next Plague). If the Pharaoh hardens his own heart sufficiently to push the decision the way God wants then there is no need for God to actively intervene.

quote:

Its what usually happens to people...

God manipulating them into doing bad things so he can punish them ? That doesnt sound like the sort of thing that most Christians would consider normal. Its not the sort of thing that any rational person considers to be good.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 673 by Phat, posted 01-11-2019 12:17 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 710 by Phat, posted 01-21-2019 11:13 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14720
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 675 of 800 (846732)
01-11-2019 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 672 by Faith
01-11-2019 12:16 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
quote:

Nothing to show, we know it because we understand how scripture is to be read.

In other words you get to rewrite the Bible whenever you want so long as you lit to cover it up. And they dont even have to be good lies. Just another example of Biblical Inerrancy in action.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 672 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 12:16 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
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