Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8936 total)
27 online now:
AZPaul3, caffeine, jar, Percy (Admin), Tangle (5 members, 22 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: ssope
Upcoming Birthdays: AdminPhat
Post Volume: Total: 861,650 Year: 16,686/19,786 Month: 811/2,598 Week: 57/251 Day: 10/24 Hour: 1/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
GDR
Member
Posts: 4960
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 676 of 858 (846734)
01-11-2019 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 654 by Thugpreacha
01-10-2019 3:44 AM


Re: Jesus' mission not limited to individual salvation
Phat writes:

Notice the date of his post, GDR. jar has not yet returned.


Rats. Thanks.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 654 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-10-2019 3:44 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12792
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 677 of 858 (846737)
01-11-2019 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by ringo
07-23-2015 11:39 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
ringo writes:

Our free will depends on what God will do to us if we don't do HIS will. It doesn't matter whether He knows beforehand what we're going to do. Whatever we "choose", He does HIS will.
That isn't free will for us. Heaven or Hell is not a reasonable choice.

OK, lets think about that. Lets say there was no hell. Never. Lets also assume that there was the hypothetical rebellion in Heaven. Some of the angels began to agree with one specific angel who wanted to do things his own way. This angel was allegedly jealous that God had creatures who freely loved Him. The angel evidently wanted in on some of that action. Whatever. The point is, what type of a place would such a heaven be like? It would be like anarchy at work, where some folks decided they didn't want to work as a team and sought to make their own hours and rules. Arguably God had to make hell as a place for the rebellious workers to freely express themselves because he didn't want them mucking up Heaven.

ringo writes:

What's so bad about a world in which a man who is about to do a mass shooting is struck by lightning? I could live with a God who exerted that kind of useful control.

Same thing. Whats so bad about a Heaven where a rebellious angel is given his own abode so as not to disrupt the flow?
ringo writes:

... to you, free will means having compleeeeeeete freedom to choose milk chocolate or dark chocolate or white chocolate - and you ignore the threat that you'll be tortured eternally for choosing vanilla.


phat writes:

Perhaps choosing vanilla has unforeseen consequences down the road...


ringo writes:

Then let the consequences fall where they may - but we don't need a God to impose additional arbitrary consequences of His own.

Let's say that swimming in shark-infested waters was dangerous. lets also say that you wanted the right to swim wherever you wanted, blaming God for the sharks. If God tells you that if you swim there you will die, that itself is not an arbitrary standard. The chips will fall, the sharks will eat, and you will be fish food. You may not have chosen it, but by not listening to God, you experienced that judgement by default. So is God responsible for the sharks? It seems to me you would want a right to challenge God, rebel, and not get judged or punished for it in any way.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by ringo, posted 07-23-2015 11:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 678 by ringo, posted 01-11-2019 10:42 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17281
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 678 of 858 (846754)
01-11-2019 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 677 by Thugpreacha
01-11-2019 3:13 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Phat writes:

Lets say there was no hell. Never. Lets also assume that there was the hypothetical rebellion in Heaven.


No. Let's not. I'm not interested in conclusions drawn from made-up assumptions. Let's stick to reality.

Phat writes:

The point is, what type of a place would such a heaven be like? It would be like anarchy at work, where some folks decided they didn't want to work as a team and sought to make their own hours and rules.


Seriously, don't you see how stupid that sounds? God is such a weakling that He doesn't even rule in Heaven? Come on. Stop wasting my time with that tripe.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 677 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-11-2019 3:13 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 679 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-11-2019 10:43 AM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12792
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 679 of 858 (846755)
01-11-2019 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 678 by ringo
01-11-2019 10:42 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Im going off of your assumptions that hell makes no sense.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 678 by ringo, posted 01-11-2019 10:42 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 680 by ringo, posted 01-11-2019 10:45 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17281
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 680 of 858 (846756)
01-11-2019 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 679 by Thugpreacha
01-11-2019 10:43 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Phat writes:

Im going off of your assumptions that hell makes no sense.


My "assumption" is a conclusion based on your ideas about hell. The puny "god" that you describe makes no sense.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 679 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-11-2019 10:43 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 681 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-11-2019 11:19 AM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12792
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 681 of 858 (846758)
01-11-2019 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 680 by ringo
01-11-2019 10:45 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
No punier than a God who needs correction from humans. And which you and jar claim is Biblical.

Why have not the apologists mentioned this anomaly in the stories? Oh, that's right...you think they are all in cahoots to sell snake oil.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 680 by ringo, posted 01-11-2019 10:45 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 682 by Tangle, posted 01-11-2019 11:26 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 683 by ringo, posted 01-11-2019 11:42 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7067
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 682 of 858 (846759)
01-11-2019 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 681 by Thugpreacha
01-11-2019 11:19 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Just for the record Phat, do you actually believe all this stuff about angels in heaven rebelling and god not being able to stop the devil and so on?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 681 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-11-2019 11:19 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 685 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-11-2019 4:02 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17281
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 683 of 858 (846760)
01-11-2019 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 681 by Thugpreacha
01-11-2019 11:19 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Phat writes:

No punier than a God who needs correction from humans. And which you and jar claim is Biblical.


It is in the Bible. Do you seriously dispute that?

Phat writes:

Why have not the apologists mentioned this anomaly in the stories?


Why don't bank robbers get real jobs? That's not their agenda.

Phat writes:

Oh, that's right...you think they are all in cahoots to sell snake oil.


If you have apologetics to defend the lies that apologists tell, why don't you explain?

quote:
Apologetics (from Greek ἀðïëïãßá, "speaking in defense") is the religious discipline of defending religious doctrines through systematic argumentation and discourse. link

quote:
Propaganda is information that is not objective and is used primarily to influence an audience and further an agenda, often by presenting facts selectively to encourage a particular synthesis or perception, or using loaded language to produce an emotional rather than a rational response to the information that is presented. link

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 681 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-11-2019 11:19 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 684 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-11-2019 3:35 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12792
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 684 of 858 (846786)
01-11-2019 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 683 by ringo
01-11-2019 11:42 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
First, let's take your link to Propaganda:
quote:
Propaganda is information that is not objective and is used primarily to influence an audience and further an agenda, often by presenting facts selectively to encourage a particular synthesis or perception or using loaded language to produce an emotional rather than a rational response to the information that is presented.
Are you saying that objective information by definition will likely not defend a belief? This irritates me because you have reframed the issue making objectivity the default value. Now, this is not a problem unless objectivity is atheistic or secular humanist in nature, whereupon I would claim bias and propaganda on that end of the spectrum.

Second, though while you are a clever debater, you seemingly use a tactic of switching back and forth from neutral objectivity to quoting the Bible when it suits you.
For instance, you will claim that Jesus told us to do it or ask Jesus. Then, later on in our ongoing discussions, you will claim that Jesus may not have even existed and that God is fiction. Don't you realize how hard on the head this flip flop becomes? Its almost as if you are more concerned with simply winning a debate than you are for persuading me that your argument is sound.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 683 by ringo, posted 01-11-2019 11:42 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 693 by ringo, posted 01-12-2019 10:52 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12792
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 685 of 858 (846789)
01-11-2019 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 682 by Tangle
01-11-2019 11:26 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
tangle writes:

Just for the record Phat, do you actually believe all this stuff about angels in heaven rebelling and god not being able to stop the devil and so on?

I question it often. There are a lot of things about my faith that I question.

  • Why is God and Jesus so persuasive to me and not as much so for others? ```I see Faith turning a blind eye to reason as she insists that there surely must be an answer that she has not found yet. And I try and follow reason in as many arguments as I can until they bump up against my faith and belief. To throw these away is not wise.

    It is not wise because I believe that my faith must be tested to be proven genuine. Now...did God tell me to believe this? *thinks about it*... No, in my opinion, God expects me to question anything I dont understand.

    Granted without faith it is impossible to please God. (Thats the message) A double minded mind is unstable. We all have questions and doubts, and we all tend to stick with what we have chosen to believe.

    Lets take what I see to be your argument.

    Tangle writes:

    I'm using heaven as an example of a godly creation that doesn't involve evil and suffering. Apparently it's perfectly possible.

    In other words, as long as God behaves appropriately in your mind, He is at best worthy of consideration (to exist) but as soon as it is read in scriptures that He is mean, vindictive, obviously a product of human writings, and fallibilities.

    I'll grant that our understanding is limited by our fallibilities. For this reason, a war in Heaven seems like a rationale to a perfect God dealing with imperfection, flaws, strong wills opposed to Him, and other such philosophical head of pin issues.

    tangle writes:

    It is what it is because life here evolved that way - competition between species, carnivorousness, pain and suffering all makes perfect sense.

    But no loving god would ever create such a thing and nor is it the only creation possible.

    In other words, you describe God as a belief concept based entirely on what you would consider a set of rational characteristics. Granted this makes sense. One would not feel comfortable believing in a God Who could and would allow pain and suffering.

    I can see your point of view better than you may think. You have simply dismissed any idea of anything unevidenced by science and rationality. And I can appreciate this world view. Why not focus on evidence? Why not go fishing and live life without worrying about philosophical hypotheticals waiting to pounce?

    For the sake of my mental health and stability, I would be wise to consider doing the same thing.

    In conclusion, I'm not entirely sure why I cling to belief. It seems it would be easy to let go. But I have subjectively experienced a loving God. Or at least I thought I did. And I won't let that belief go.

    You dont make it any easier, however.

    tangle writes:

    I said that the existence of free will demonstrates that god is evil or reckless or, in fact, not god.

    Seems like a loaded question, doesn't it! If I embrace and accept my free will, I somehow must either deal with an imperfect God or renounce my belief.

    God can and does stop the devil. The devil is in the details. The devil resides in our philosophy. It would be wise for all of us to pay attention to how we think and why we think as we do. It also does not hurt to speculate how we would or should respond whenever various wrenches are thrown into the mix.

    This sort of thinking also works with those who have no beliefs at all.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 682 by Tangle, posted 01-11-2019 11:26 AM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 691 by Tangle, posted 01-11-2019 6:29 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
  • Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12792
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 686 of 858 (846792)
    01-11-2019 4:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 344 by ringo
    09-29-2015 1:10 PM


    Re: Flickering Christians?
    ringo writes:

    We all know that our grandfathers existed, whether they were good or bad. We do NOT know whether or not God exists. It is reasonable to deny his existence, given the total lack of evidence that he does exist. Also, given the way he is described by his devotees, it is reasonable to reject him.

    Some of us claim to know. It is your job to request that we prove it.
    ringo writes:

    I'm not interested in conclusions drawn from made-up assumptions. Let's stick to reality.

    Perhaps that is why you have such low regard for belief. Belief is an assumption. I have a higher regard for my belief than I have for the need for evidence. One need not prove the obvious to me.

    You will then ask how my definition of obvious seems diametrically the opposite of yours. You then will likely question my methodology of defining my belief as an obvious assumption. I would also ask why you are the opposite---why you conclude the way that you conclude. *flips through the record*...
    Ah...you will again repeat that the message has value and the existence or nonexistence of messengers is secondary in importance or relevance.

    To me that is obvious. It is not as obvious as to why it was easier for you to deny that God exists the way most apologists insist He does. I get that you value belief as a low priority. I conclude that you simply accepted the evidence you found. I have found much of that same evidence and have rejected it.

    The decision is a choice that should not be backed by evidence pro or con.

    Now lets go give out spare change...its gonna snow tonite.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 344 by ringo, posted 09-29-2015 1:10 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 687 by AZPaul3, posted 01-11-2019 4:51 PM Thugpreacha has responded
     Message 694 by ringo, posted 01-12-2019 11:00 AM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 4504
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.1


    Message 687 of 858 (846796)
    01-11-2019 4:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 686 by Thugpreacha
    01-11-2019 4:17 PM


    Re: Flickering Christians?
    I conclude that you simply accepted the evidence you found. I have found much of that same evidence and have rejected it.

    The decision is a choice that should not be backed by evidence pro or con.

    We're in deep doo-doo because so many people make their choices based on emotional gut feel instead of on knowledge.

    The species is doomed.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 686 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-11-2019 4:17 PM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 688 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-11-2019 4:57 PM AZPaul3 has responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12792
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 688 of 858 (846797)
    01-11-2019 4:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 687 by AZPaul3
    01-11-2019 4:51 PM


    Re: Flickering Christians?
    I respect knowledge when it is conclusive. Much of the knowledge that counter-apologists get is gathered from the source notes of their fellows: Sam Harris, Jeffrey Jay Lowder, Richard Dawkins, Richard Carrier, and Christopher Hitchens...et al.
    (also the logical fallacies arguments)
    This information is presented as factual but is not yet conclusive in my mind. I have seen other information which many apologists have used. It too is not as of yet conclusive in my mind. In summation, there is no solid conclusion as to the question of whether or not the books of the Bible are reliable as evidence or not.

    I would argue that a fair number of the detractors also are motivated by emotional gut feel. For whatever reason, they have concluded that religious indoctrination is harmful and fake. Like many apologists, they seek confirmation through the internet, books, and like-minded people. Not everyone is this way. Some of you...too few...are open to information from wither side.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 687 by AZPaul3, posted 01-11-2019 4:51 PM AZPaul3 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 689 by AZPaul3, posted 01-11-2019 5:38 PM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 4504
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.1


    Message 689 of 858 (846800)
    01-11-2019 5:38 PM
    Reply to: Message 688 by Thugpreacha
    01-11-2019 4:57 PM


    Re: Flickering Christians?
    In summation, there is no solid conclusion as to the question of whether or not the books of the Bible are reliable as evidence or not.

    Just from the bible, then, you cannot rightfully make a decision either way.

    Just from the bible, with all the questions of authorship, veracity, and reliability, as you say, there is no basis upon which to make a god-done-it decision.

    But, with the other evidence we have from all the sciences which show that a god is not necessary to accomplish the reality we see in this universe we are forced into a position of rightfully discounting, almost to zero, the various god-done-it philosophies. With all the holy books being under such questionable veracity there appears to be no evidence to counter this conclusion.

    If some must insist and faith is the only reason to conclude god then we must also conclude tooth fairy, leprechauns and Her Most Divineliness The Invisible Pink Unicorn (May She Always Have A Full Bag Of Feed) as well and that's just plain crazy.

    Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 688 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-11-2019 4:57 PM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 690 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 6:12 PM AZPaul3 has responded
     Message 704 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-13-2019 3:43 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 32899
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 690 of 858 (846801)
    01-11-2019 6:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 689 by AZPaul3
    01-11-2019 5:38 PM


    Re: Flickering Christians?
    That IS just plain crazy.

    The quality of the testimony in the Bible is excellent evidence for its veracity, unlike that of all the other stuff you claim is equivalent. I don't know why you guys are so stupid about these things or think we are, or that all of us are. Some people argue from feelings but I don't and most I know don't. The quality of the Bible deserves the belief it asks of us and the more time we spend getting to know it the firmer becomes our basis for believing it. If you don't see it, that's your own inability to judge literature accurately.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 689 by AZPaul3, posted 01-11-2019 5:38 PM AZPaul3 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 692 by AZPaul3, posted 01-12-2019 7:05 AM Faith has responded

        
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019